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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 6:09:46 GMT -6
The volley fire reported by the Reno/Benteen group was so unusual as to cause comment that it was a signal. A signal should be two things: 1. Agreed upon beforehand. Everyone should know what it is. 2. Something distinguished, out of the normal. A red flare in the middle of the ocean-type of thing. Standard doctrine for dismounted cavalry was to line up, and fire on command. Of course without any pre-battle agreed "distress signal", it could have been a desperate way to signal the others as noe riders would have made it. I agree completely, but what I was trying to bring out was that volley fire was thought to be so unusual by Benteen/Reno forces that they discounted it could be tactical; it had to be a signal. I think that if the troops were being pressed by a large body of warriors they would have used the alternate-ranks volley strategy to hold warriors off. That they did not suggests to me that they were not being "attacked" until C Company collapsed and that rolled through the rest of the Keogh sector.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 6:22:29 GMT -6
Thanks for the welcome! I believe that the three companies were in a holding pattern while Custer scouted ahead with the other two. He'd already sent for Benteen and believed he was hurrying to meet him with the pack train. If he'd been under pressure at that point I think he would have gone into a defensive position with all five companies. Even Keogh seemed to be treating the indians as an annoyance rather than a threat. With regard to the amount of fire that L might have generated, the casings suggests that they weren't firing that much, just dealing with some infiltration perhaps. It seems like the C Company charge failed, and emboldened the indians, who then followed the survivors back and rolled up the whole C/I/L grouping. Going back to Isandhlwana and other actions of the Zulu war, it seemed like it was possible to hold off the Zulu, who were behaving more like an organized military unit, as long as you could maintain volley fire from a reasonable number of troops. Once discipline breaks down and people start to run they can't hold off attackers. If a hundred or more warriors run at L company can they fire fast enough to keep them at bay? If L broke, it would make it even harder for Keogh's people, who I don't think were even in line, to deal with the growing disorder. I don't think CIL was expecting anything at Battle Ridge, or occupying that much ground with only 120 soldiers. I think they were retreating. L was leading the retreat. Coming down the slope of Calhoun Hill, they ran into warriors coming from the Reno battle. I don't know, but I think Lieutenant Calhoun thought that by dismounting his troops and firing a few volleys he could scatter them. When he found that it was not possible he mounted his troop and climbed to the top of Calhoun Hill. He would think that on higher ground and with the help of I and L coming up behind, they would be able to stop the warriors. That doesn't seem to match the archaeology or the indian accounts. The distribution of casings and bullets seems to show that with the exception of some firing prior to the charge by C to drive off warriors getting too close there wasn't much firing by the remaining Keogh people. Benteen walked the Custer site after Terry/Gibbon came up and he didn't see any indications of an organized resistance. It seems to me that if the CIL unit were retreating they'd have made a decision to dismount and form a skirmish line more as a unit. Having one company dismount or the others coming up from behind suggests that they were separated. It's easier for me to understand that by accepting the thesis that Custer had left them in the Calhoun area to await Benteen while he scouted further, and that none of the command was at that point under pressure. I think CIL wasn't heading south at all, but they were routed along the ridge toward Last Stand Hill by a successive collapse that started with the C charge. But that's just my view
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 3, 2022 8:21:59 GMT -6
I don't think CIL was expecting anything at Battle Ridge, or occupying that much ground with only 120 soldiers. I think they were retreating. L was leading the retreat. Coming down the slope of Calhoun Hill, they ran into warriors coming from the Reno battle. I don't know, but I think Lieutenant Calhoun thought that by dismounting his troops and firing a few volleys he could scatter them. When he found that it was not possible he mounted his troop and climbed to the top of Calhoun Hill. He would think that on higher ground and with the help of I and L coming up behind, they would be able to stop the warriors. That doesn't seem to match the archaeology or the indian accounts. The distribution of casings and bullets seems to show that with the exception of some firing prior to the charge by C to drive off warriors getting too close there wasn't much firing by the remaining Keogh people. Benteen walked the Custer site after Terry/Gibbon came up and he didn't see any indications of an organized resistance. It seems to me that if the CIL unit were retreating they'd have made a decision to dismount and form a skirmish line more as a unit. Having one company dismount or the others coming up from behind suggests that they were separated. It's easier for me to understand that by accepting the thesis that Custer had left them in the Calhoun area to await Benteen while he scouted further, and that none of the command was at that point under pressure. I think CIL wasn't heading south at all, but they were routed along the ridge toward Last Stand Hill by a successive collapse that started with the C charge. But that's just my view Well, it´s what you think but I think you´re very wrong. If you think Custer left CIL guarding Battle Ridge why did he put L on a hillside? He would have placed her at the top. Why did he place I on the east side of Battle Ridge where he couldn't see anything that was going on? He would have put it on top to get a full view of the area. What was C doing in Greasy Grass? Why would he wait for Benteen when he was an hour behind? What good was Benteen without ammunition?
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 3, 2022 8:44:37 GMT -6
Rob, no questions are ever out of bounds. Private Tweed and Kellogg's bodies are buried on Last Stand Hill, far from where they were found. There were also 4 or 5 bodies under what is now the Visitor Center. I look forward to your 200th post. Regards, Tom Hi JI, tubman. The markers at or near the Stonehouse is at best false and probably very much worse. It was a long term topic linked here with quite a bit to consider. The markers were wooden and sat in the valley leaning on a fence or barn.......... nothing to do with 1876. I got into a discussion elsewhere with a authority on the battle who point blank discoursed on various bodies north of 212 as gospel but in spite of reassuring me it is true, that's it. If there is evidence, it was never published or placed in the public domain. The story is broader than 1876, since owners of the various parcels of land had interest in promoting the land and despite, for example, Park Ranger Donahue's obsession with Custer hunting for women and children miles downriver which may be a homage to Cliff Nelson's prior work on the Custer Battalion north of Last Stand Hill. I'm not sure of the above link, it seems to be nothing but opinions by posters like you and I.Link to item on the trading post owner. I have known Putt Thompson since 2014, Steve Andrews since about 2010. Putt has lost a good deal of weight since that interview and wears his hair in a braided pony tail. Putt is married to a beautiful Crow lady who is also a beautiful person. Putt is neighbors with both the Crow and Cheyenne, most of his employees represent these tribes. Over the years these employees and their families have been a wealth of knowledge. The Trading Post is his business, but he may makes more money next door buying and selling Native American antiquities. Having said all this Steve Andrews and I have learned much more by asking Putt direct questions and by asking questions of those he turned us on to. Putt bought bought the property 1994,and he told us the markers were moved long before his ownership. It's a shame you can't join Steve and I for breakfast or lunch at the Trading Post. We met gentlemen who followed JSIT around the battlefield as a youth and others who are filled with family knowledge. The interview above was more of a puff piece.There are versions of this beyond 212 thing. Bodies found there, or markers placed there. In terms of markers, none were officially placed in those areas. We know this from the Officer who did the work and R.B. Marshall who mapped the markers in 1890 or 1891. Here's the report www.welchdakotapapers.com/2012/02/col-welch-notes-on-custer/#captain-sweets- Marshall's maps are well known. I think that a horse skeleton was found on the d**e Ranch and he wanted to build a museum there. Very much more going on than the 1876 battle, i'm affraid. very much more. In one of three accounts of the battle given by Gall at the 10th Anniversary, he told of 14 soldiers who escaped the Custer fight, crossed the river came back up the valley and were then killed. So, horses for courses but unfortunately, this compares well with the troops left behind in the valley fighting. No way to soet that one out. The six markers told of at the Stone House were in fact wooden markers laying around on the farm in the valley where the Reno Museum stood and where Fort Custer now Stands and where CBHMA undertake tours of the Wagner version of the valley skirmish. It's a mishmashof hearsay and various intentions and goodwill, Elizabeth Custer's collection of historical records and artifacts is housed at Garryowen, where the unknown soldier was buried in 1926, at the 50th Annieversary. It's a complete mess of speculation and re-speculations. Some is very good, here's Cliff Nelson on the valley fight - link - stood on the brow of the road and railwayimmediately upriver of Garryowen on the roadside. You can see the famous phone poles in the background and the area of the truncated riverloop below it. Nelson was a ranger at the battlefield when Donahue began his summer seasons there away from lecturing in Texas. Nelson was interested in Custer's movements north of LSH and this formed the basis of his little known thesis. RiP Marker map? Where were the bodies found? If you can lay hands on Douglas Scott's book "A Good Walk Around the Boundary.Dreams and History and what it brings. HR, I think we all know you are a wealth of knowledge, to some degree our own search engine. I do wonder, however, if you are not selective with some of your links, using them to support your opinions. And, to one of favourite Brits, Happy 4th of July, and thank you. Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 8:50:25 GMT -6
That doesn't seem to match the archaeology or the indian accounts. The distribution of casings and bullets seems to show that with the exception of some firing prior to the charge by C to drive off warriors getting too close there wasn't much firing by the remaining Keogh people. Benteen walked the Custer site after Terry/Gibbon came up and he didn't see any indications of an organized resistance. It seems to me that if the CIL unit were retreating they'd have made a decision to dismount and form a skirmish line more as a unit. Having one company dismount or the others coming up from behind suggests that they were separated. It's easier for me to understand that by accepting the thesis that Custer had left them in the Calhoun area to await Benteen while he scouted further, and that none of the command was at that point under pressure. I think CIL wasn't heading south at all, but they were routed along the ridge toward Last Stand Hill by a successive collapse that started with the C charge. But that's just my view Well, it´s what you think but I think you´re very wrong. If you think Custer left CIL guarding Battle Ridge why did he put L on a hillside? He would have placed her at the top. Why did he place I on the east side of Battle Ridge where he couldn't see anything that was going on? He would have put it on top to get a full view of the area. What was C doing in Greasy Grass? Why would he wait for Benteen when he was an hour behind? What good was Benteen without ammunition? As they say, differences in opinion are what make horseraces I think Custer left the CIL group to scout with his other two companies. I don't think they were left to guard anything, just to hold position. I go back to the messages Custer sent to Benteen. According to the messengers Custer was still holding his 5 companies together and wasn't under any pressure. I don't believe Custer knew exactly where Benteen was at that point, and he was just trying to regroup his forces while he scouted past the village. The L deployment, IMHO, was simply to keep the warriors at a distance not to counter a strong threat. The remaining companies were "in reserve" behind, much where the bodies were found. I think while Custer was away, Keogh sent C company, mounted, to put some pressure on the warriors but that the advance took them under intense fire and they broke back, which started the rout. That was Fox's conclusion and Philbrick adopted the same view in his book later. Am I wrong? Nobody knows for sure at this point, including you and I, but discussion is always helpful.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 3, 2022 9:00:06 GMT -6
That doesn't seem to match the archaeology or the indian accounts. The distribution of casings and bullets seems to show that with the exception of some firing prior to the charge by C to drive off warriors getting too close there wasn't much firing by the remaining Keogh people. Benteen walked the Custer site after Terry/Gibbon came up and he didn't see any indications of an organized resistance. It seems to me that if the CIL unit were retreating they'd have made a decision to dismount and form a skirmish line more as a unit. Having one company dismount or the others coming up from behind suggests that they were separated. It's easier for me to understand that by accepting the thesis that Custer had left them in the Calhoun area to await Benteen while he scouted further, and that none of the command was at that point under pressure. I think CIL wasn't heading south at all, but they were routed along the ridge toward Last Stand Hill by a successive collapse that started with the C charge. But that's just my view Well, it´s what you think but I think you´re very wrong. If you think Custer left CIL guarding Battle Ridge why did he put L on a hillside? He would have placed her at the top. Why did he place I on the east side of Battle Ridge where he couldn't see anything that was going on? He would have put it on top to get a full view of the area. What was C doing in Greasy Grass? Why would he wait for Benteen when he was an hour behind? What good was Benteen without ammunition? Nape, it is obvious that I agree with you. I will add here that the cavalry tactic when confronted by force is to dismount and form a skirmish line, sometimes they briefly skirmish on horseback, which they did on their way north. Archeology confirms that northbound skirmish line, near Nye/Cartwright, Custer was being harried. Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 3, 2022 9:21:26 GMT -6
Well, it´s what you think but I think you´re very wrong. If you think Custer left CIL guarding Battle Ridge why did he put L on a hillside? He would have placed her at the top. Why did he place I on the east side of Battle Ridge where he couldn't see anything that was going on? He would have put it on top to get a full view of the area. What was C doing in Greasy Grass? Why would he wait for Benteen when he was an hour behind? What good was Benteen without ammunition? As they say, differences in opinion are what make horseraces I think Custer left the CIL group to scout with his other two companies. I don't think they were left to guard anything, just to hold position. I go back to the messages Custer sent to Benteen. According to the messengers Custer was still holding his 5 companies together and wasn't under any pressure. I don't believe Custer knew exactly where Benteen was at that point, and he was just trying to regroup his forces while he scouted past the village. The L deployment, IMHO, was simply to keep the warriors at a distance not to counter a strong threat. The remaining companies were "in reserve" behind, much where the bodies were found. I think while Custer was away, Keogh sent C company, mounted, to put some pressure on the warriors but that the advance took them under intense fire and they broke back, which started the rout. That was Fox's conclusion and Philbrick adopted the same view in his book later. Am I wrong? Nobody knows for sure at this point, including you and I, but discussion is always helpful. Met Fox briefly in 2019 certainly did not discuss this particular point, does he lock this down, if so where? He is top drawer in his field, does he say that the skirmish line could not have been formed from a dismount? Philbrick is a horse of a different color, he writes to make a living. The Mayflower book is a work of fiction. His LBH book has numerous mistakes,(minor) we should ask Fred Wagner if the work was spot on. You make fair arguments, thank you. Regards, Tom
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 3, 2022 10:13:04 GMT -6
Well, it´s what you think but I think you´re very wrong. If you think Custer left CIL guarding Battle Ridge why did he put L on a hillside? He would have placed her at the top. Why did he place I on the east side of Battle Ridge where he couldn't see anything that was going on? He would have put it on top to get a full view of the area. What was C doing in Greasy Grass? Why would he wait for Benteen when he was an hour behind? What good was Benteen without ammunition? As they say, differences in opinion are what make horseraces I think Custer left the CIL group to scout with his other two companies. I don't think they were left to guard anything, just to hold position. I go back to the messages Custer sent to Benteen. According to the messengers Custer was still holding his 5 companies together and wasn't under any pressure. I don't believe Custer knew exactly where Benteen was at that point, and he was just trying to regroup his forces while he scouted past the village. The L deployment, IMHO, was simply to keep the warriors at a distance not to counter a strong threat. The remaining companies were "in reserve" behind, much where the bodies were found. I think while Custer was away, Keogh sent C company, mounted, to put some pressure on the warriors but that the advance took them under intense fire and they broke back, which started the rout. That was Fox's conclusion and Philbrick adopted the same view in his book later. Am I wrong? Nobody knows for sure at this point, including you and I, but discussion is always helpful. You´re right about many things: differences of opinion mean that different ideas can be discussed civilly. And another very, very important thing is that no one knows for sure how it all happened. Custer didn't need to scout with two companies, ten or twelve soldiers with an officer and a sergeant were enough. When he dismissed Benteen he ordered him to keep six well-mounted cavalrymen and one officer forward at all times. A dozen people can see the same as ninety. But to me logic (and the archaeological evidence corroborates it), tells me that Custer went north with the five Companies. They traveled east of Battle Ridge, past Custer Hill to the north, and turned left down Ford D. Somewhere near the river, Custer realized that it was impossible to cross and aborted the action. Companies E and F moved up to the high ground overlooking the area. Company E stayed on Cemetery Ridge, and F with Custer on the Battle Ridge Extension protecting the CIL retreat. The three Companies reached the point where they were intercepted by Sioux warriors coming from the south, after Reno's retreat to his position on the bluffs across the river. Company E lost the horses at Cemetery Ridge and sealed its fate. Company F with Custer was fighting back to Custer Hill, where it was surrounded on all sides. All dead. Lost battle. This is my quick and abridged version of the ending of Custer's Five Companies.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 3, 2022 12:54:59 GMT -6
I agree Bob, the time for scouting was over. The fighting started for Custer actually in MTC, I have already posted the map of the amount of cartridges found on Luce/Ney/Cartwright ridges, so there is very strong evidence of shooting. This is all before they reached Battle Ridge, so the element of surprize was lost along with the need to scout. Once the five companies reached Battle Ridge, then the race to reach the northern fords began at haste, so why leave troopers behind, why defend a position which is no longer any use to you. The battle in the eyes of GAC was right ahead down near the river, that was his objective.
Ian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 13:04:57 GMT -6
Met Fox briefly in 2019 certainly did not discuss this particular point, does he lock this down, if so where? He is top drawer in his field, does he say that the skirmish line could not have been formed from a dismount? Philbrick is a horse of a different color, he writes to make a living. The Mayflower book is a work of fiction. His LBH book has numerous mistakes,(minor) we should ask Fred Wagner if the work was spot on. I refer quickly to his "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" Page 108 and in particular Figure 7-10. I think he makes a good case for having L cover the position of Keogh's wing. My biggest problem with the "Keogh retreats" model is that I believe all of Keogh's companies were represented among the dead at Last Stand Hill. The collapse theory explains why that would be. If Keogh left Custer to retreat with his three companies, it's hard for me to understand why some of Keogh's companies were found on that hill. I also believe that there were C company people found ahead, where the charge would have taken them.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 3, 2022 13:36:01 GMT -6
Hello "theoldguy" which is odd me saying that since I am probably around your age The only "I" company men found with Custer where; PVT Edward C. Driscoll (I) PVT Archibald McIlhargey (I) PVT John E. Mitchell (I) PVT John Parker (I) Now as you know, McIlhargey and Mitchell where messengers detached to serve with the HQ element, which leaves only two. EMs found on LSH Hill. SGM William Sharrow (HQ) 1SG Michael Kenney (F) SGT John H. Groesbeck (F) CPL William Teeman (F) Chief Trumpeter Henry Voss (HQ) PVT Ygnatz Stungewitz (C) PVT Willis B. Wright (C) PVT Anton Dohman (F) PVT Gustav Klein (F) PVT William H. Lerock (F) PVT Werner L. Liemann (F) PVT Edward C. Driscoll (I) PVT Archibald McIlhargey (I) PVT John E. Mitchell (I) PVT John Parker (I) PVT Francis T. Hughes (L) PVT Charles McCarthy (L) PVT Oscar F. Pardee (L) PVT Thomas S. Tweed (L) Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 3, 2022 14:38:08 GMT -6
Ian, you left out Tweed who was found below CR. Why was he there?
And, to Theo, and what company was Tweed with? And, why was he there? Kellogg was also found down by the old road, not everyone buried on LSH was killed there.
Ian, we have been through this before and I'm sure we don't agree on all aspects of the N/S battle flow, but we are close. I'm sure that the casual reader doesn't know that many Indians perceived that Custer had 6 companies with him, counting HQ.
Theo, is there any way Keogh, was hit broadside by CH, as the third company in a retrograde? Do you totally discount any non traditional happenings?
Also all of Reno's messengers died with Custer.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 15:51:56 GMT -6
Hello "theoldguy" which is odd me saying that since I am probably around your age I doubt it; hardly anyone is my age The point I was trying to make is that there were some Keogh people from each of his companies, which to me begs the question of how they got there if Keogh separated and retreated. In any event, IMHO, if the five companies (plus HQ) were pressed, they it's hard for me to understand why they'd have separated at that point. If they were attacked in the Last Stand Hill vicinity as a unit, I think they'd have stayed together. If Keogh split off, then my presumption would have to be that they were not significantly pressed, in which case why did he split off and retreat? Do we think that Keogh led a general retreat? If that's the case then there should have been no Keogh troopers on Last Stand Hill. OK, maybe I'm delusional but I think that Custer was doing what might have been expected, which was to presume that the warriors were a mob and that he could assume that they'd be just reacting. Thus, he was acting. He didn't believe he was under threat at all. Neither did Keogh. They believed they were in control of the situation, which they were until their complacency led them to underestimate what the warriors (two to four thousand depending on who you believe) could do even if they weren't coordinated at a tactical level. A mass of charging people, even if they outnumber you by only 2 or 3 to one, presents a defensive challenge when the dominant weapon on the defense is single-shot. You shoot. You have maybe ten seconds before you can shoot again. A bunch of people who want to kill YOU (from your perspective) are charging. Your life depends on someone else shooting them because you're not ready to shoot again. Run? Seems logical. I've been to the battlefield, both Custer's and Isandhlwana (and Rourke's Drift). I don't claim to be a military strategist (I was in the Navy and there were no oceans near to Little Big Horn), nor a historical expert, but I'm a researcher by trade. I've read all the primary material and that's what's shaped my views, along with looking at the ground from a limited perspective of three weeks of Marine indoctrination. I think that there's a tendency to see the warriors at Little Big Horn as pseudo-military, and all accounts including their own say that's not the case. The warriors were all following those who they respected, without any military discipline. To say that Custer's people were retreating begs the question of who was advancing against them. No organized formation, no battle line. Where was there to retreat to? Custer made the same mistake Crook made, and that the Brits made at Isandhlwana. On one hand, he assumed an organized foe. On the other hand, he assume that his problem would be to get them to battle at all. You can't win a fight by assuming the enemy is following your script
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Post by noggy on Jul 4, 2022 1:36:37 GMT -6
In the end, we all have pretty much the same sources and no one has a secret document "revealing what happened", but still many manage to come to different conclusions from thse sources. I for one welcome that and find that it is a big part of what makes this interesting. The dead members from CIL on LSH is a great example of that:
Person 1: Well obviously they died there before their respective companies headed South. Person 2: Well obviously a handfull managed to flee North when Crazy Horse, Crow King etc attacked CIL. Person 3: They were planted there by the Pentagon! Person 1 and 2: Boooo!
Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 4, 2022 2:46:50 GMT -6
Ian, you left out Tweed who was found below CR. Why was he there? And, to Theo, and what company was Tweed with? And, why was he there? Kellogg was also found down by the old road, not everyone buried on LSH was killed there. Ian, we have been through this before and I'm sure we don't agree on all aspects of the N/S battle flow, but we are close. I'm sure that the casual reader doesn't know that many Indians perceived that Custer had 6 companies with him, counting HQ. Theo, is there any way Keogh, was hit broadside by CH, as the third company in a retrograde? Do you totally discount any non traditional happenings? Also all of Reno's messengers died with Custer. Regards, Tom Hi Tom, I named Tweed, he was the last name in the privates. Ian
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