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Post by justinterested on May 29, 2022 17:10:02 GMT -6
Hi, Tom.
What bodies were found north of US12?
Thanks,
Rob
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Post by tubman13 on May 30, 2022 4:08:24 GMT -6
Good question, Michael Donohue or someone else with the Park Service could give you exact locations. But, short answer is by the Trading Post and near Custer Creek. These are obviously off of Park Service land. There were once markers, much like Vincent Charles marker and those in the valley below the Reno area.
I notice you like to answer questions with a question.
Regards, Tom
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Post by justinterested on Jun 2, 2022 17:39:56 GMT -6
Well, I think this is my second post, so I don't think you can call a pattern yet.
That said, I wasn't trying to answer your questions. I had just never heard that soldier bodies were found north of US212, and I'm not new to this topic, so I thought I'd ask. I figured I might learn something - I have in the past from this site. Hopefully that's not out of bounds ...
Best regards,
Rob
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 3, 2022 3:54:49 GMT -6
Rob, no questions are ever out of bounds. Private Tweed and Kellogg's bodies are buried on Last Stand Hill, far from where they were found. There were also 4 or 5 bodies under what is now the Visitor Center.
I look forward to your 200th post.
Regards, Tom
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Post by justinterested on Jun 3, 2022 12:03:03 GMT -6
Hi, Tom
I've been on here since 2015 or so, so the odds of me hitting 200 posts are pretty slim. But who knows.
I knew about Tweed and Kellogg, and am aware of action on Cemetery Ridge, etc. What caught my attention was bodies north of 212 (e.g. near the Trading Post). That would make a difference to me. I might see if I can contact the two names you passed.
Thanks for the responses.
Rob
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Post by noggy on Jun 8, 2022 6:26:53 GMT -6
Did Calhoun's command sit on a hill and allow Henryville to build up? Hi Tom Didn't Runs The Enemy mention this somewhat? he was a part of the initial charge against Calhoun Hill which was repulsed. All the best, Geir aka Runs From The Enemy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 8, 2022 7:25:50 GMT -6
The other option is that Calhoun had no other way but defend the area, he knew other units where behind him and the way ahead looked like a death trap, so if this was his only option then he gave it a good shot. I don't think Calhoun could have prevented any build up, he probably was firing at encoaching elements in deep coulee, at that time his right flank was facing greasy grass ridge, which was by then fully occupied by Indians, once they tried to move then C Company who could have been following up, made for this area, either to deter this move or even to reach FFR to block this advance with a skirmish line of their own, but it seems that this put them in a rather precarious position with too many fighters plus incomming from greasy grass ridge. Look at the Indian cartidge finds on greasy grass ridge; Ian
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Post by noggy on Jun 12, 2022 10:43:43 GMT -6
Did Calhoun's command sit on a hill and allow Henryville to build up? Hi Tom Didn't Runs The Enemy mention this somewhat? he was a part of the initial charge against Calhoun Hill which was repulsed. All the best, Geir aka Runs From The Enemy Hmm, I checked my copy of Lakota Noon. RTE took part in the Reno fight, then he he partook in the charge on Calhoun Hill which was repulsed. Moving North, he ended up in the LSH/Cemetery Ridge area. Here he and others captured many horses, and led them back to the village. After this he headed back to Calhoun Hills and his fellow Two Kettles warriors, and he witnesses the hill being taken by the warriors. Michno operates with 10 minutes long "segments" placing the different actions into these. In this, he has the repulse and the later victory at Calhoun Hill happening within cirka 1 hour of each other. In a fight, 1 hour s a long time, and you can do a lot but also not have any options at all in that time. I guess we might take the old Delorian back in time and check it out, but i will refuse to leave the car. All the best, Geir
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jun 25, 2022 7:13:57 GMT -6
Questions regarding North//South battle flow, a line of retreat, or did C,I,L, just sit along Battle Ridge?
Did Calhoun's command sit on a hill and allow Henryville to build up? I don't think so, I think they were retreating south when they were stopped by the warriors arriving at Henryville.
Did Keogh's command sit in a swale or on a ridge and get hit? I don't think so either, he couldn't stand in a gully to get shot like a duck from Battle Ridge.
Where was C company sitting? C Company I think was retreating behind L Company. Upon reaching the area where L Company was fighting they charged into Greasy Grass to dislodge the warriors coming up Deep Coulee
Or, did these companies proceed north on Battle Ridge to cover Custer's rear for his advance to find the northern crossing? CIL went with Custer to Ford D
Could these companies have been hit on a return south? Yes, they were stopped by Sioux warriors returning from combat with Reno in the south.
Why were bodies found north of what is now US Highway 212? Because that was the route used by the five Companies in their advance north. It is logical that the gang of Wolf Tooth would do some casualties
Just asking. Regards, Tom Okay; That's my answer to the questions you ask. I think the five Companies went north and had to withdraw. E, F and the HC made the coverage for the withdrawal of CIL. Each Company went as far as it could go back. I think that L, E and F made a stand at the moment when it was impossible for them to go another yard. Companies I and C were caught running
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Post by herosrest on Jun 30, 2022 23:54:27 GMT -6
Rob, no questions are ever out of bounds. Private Tweed and Kellogg's bodies are buried on Last Stand Hill, far from where they were found. There were also 4 or 5 bodies under what is now the Visitor Center. I look forward to your 200th post. Regards, Tom Hi JI, tubman. The markers at or near the Stonehouse is at best false and probably very much worse. It was a long term topic linked here with quite a bit to consider. The markers were wooden and sat in the valley leaning on a fence or barn.......... nothing to do with 1876. I got into a discussion elsewhere with a authority on the battle who point blank discoursed on various bodies north of 212 as gospel but in spite of reassuring me it is true, that's it. If there is evidence, it was never published or placed in the public domain. The story is broader than 1876, since owners of the various parcels of land had interest in promoting the land and despite, for example, Park Ranger Donahue's obsession with Custer hunting for women and children miles downriver which may be a homage to Cliff Nelson's prior work on the Custer Battalion north of Last Stand Hill. Link to item on the trading post owner. There are versions of this beyond 212 thing. Bodies found there, or markers placed there. In terms of markers, none were officially placed in those areas. We know this from the Officer who did the work and R.B. Marshall who mapped the markers in 1890 or 1891. Here's the report www.welchdakotapapers.com/2012/02/col-welch-notes-on-custer/#captain-sweets- Marshall's maps are well known. I think that a horse skeleton was found on the d**e Ranch and he wanted to build a museum there. Very much more going on than the 1876 battle, i'm affraid. very much more. In one of three accounts of the battle given by Gall at the 10th Anniversary, he told of 14 soldiers who escaped the Custer fight, crossed the river came back up the valley and were then killed. So, horses for courses but unfortunately, this compares well with the troops left behind in the valley fighting. No way to soet that one out. The six markers told of at the Stone House were in fact wooden markers laying around on the farm in the valley where the Reno Museum stood and where Fort Custer now Stands and where CBHMA undertake tours of the Wagner version of the valley skirmish. It's a mishmashof hearsay and various intentions and goodwill, Elizabeth Custer's collection of historical records and artifacts is housed at Garryowen, where the unknown soldier was buried in 1926, at the 50th Annieversary. It's a complete mess of speculation and re-speculations. Some is very good, here's Cliff Nelson on the valley fight - link - stood on the brow of the road and railwayimmediately upriver of Garryowen on the roadside. You can see the famous phone poles in the background and the area of the truncated riverloop below it. Nelson was a ranger at the battlefield when Donahue began his summer seasons there away from lecturing in Texas. Nelson was interested in Custer's movements north of LSH and this formed the basis of his little known thesis. RiPDreams and History and what it brings.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2022 13:00:53 GMT -6
I had a chance to tour the battlefield at Isandhlwana (the Zulu wars, the battle there only 3 years after Custer's). There we had a mass charge of Zulu, maybe 16,000 of them, against perhaps a thousand British/native troops. From what can be reconstructed after the battle it appears that the British forces held out until they were flanked because one British force ran out of ammunition and couldn't hold. They did that by firing organized alternate volleys, at a rate high enough to have required resupply. The metal detecting didn't show anything like a major action in line firing volleys; not enough casings. The volley fire reported by the Reno/Benteen group was so unusual as to cause comment that it was a signal. This suggests to me that Custer was never really "defending" against an advance. I think Fox was right in his Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle book; the five companies split when Custer wasn't particularly pressured and was still pursuing his apparent plan to close off the retreat of the village. If he was waiting for Benteen's arrival and under pressure he likely would have taken a defensive position as they did at Isandhlwana and we'd see signs of that in the cartridge distribution.
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Post by noggy on Jul 3, 2022 3:06:53 GMT -6
Okay; That's my answer to the questions you ask. I think the five Companies went north and had to withdraw. E, F and the HC made the coverage for the withdrawal of CIL. Each Company went as far as it could go back. I think that L, E and F made a stand at the moment when it was impossible for them to go another yard. Companies I and C were caught running Hello, Bob There are many NA accounts of the battle, and of the fighting around Calhoun Hill. I remember we talked about Run the Enemy's detailed story of his part in the fight, but there are also others who allude to the fact that it did take the NAs a long time to take CH; a mounted attack was repulsed with casualties, and the warriors had to regroup and then start moving in on foot. I think Michno operates with there being 50-60 minutes between the repulse and CH "falling". (I don't remember what Fred's timeline says.) That is certainly not gospel, but everything seems to indicate a prolonged stand here. What did C and I do during L's stand? If we stick to the the theory presented here, it would be at least two options: 1. L went out alone earlier than the others, and reached CH where the charges from the warriors coming from the Valley/Village post-Reno fight initially stalled and later on destroyed them. C and I came later and were hit then. 2. I and C also became stationary at some point and stayed that way for a while. Look for example of White Bull's bravery run; he was fired upon by soldiers in line, using carbines. These were dismounted troops which he had observed for a time (most likely I Company). Alternative number 2 is one which would be a compromise to the "traditional" (the term has changed meaning so much over the year that I no longer know what's considered traditional!) battle theory with 2 heading North and 3 staying in the South. I for one have no personal investment in the sense that I feel emotionally engaged n theories, the one or the other may be right (I do have a preference), or neither are and the truth is...something else. That's what makes this fun Side note: I'm still a novice and I don't have all the hundreds upon hundreds of NA accounts in my head, but are there not any who witnessed 5 Companies on/around CH and then breaking up into two groups? I really thought so. Or of parts of the soldiers heading North with others staying behind? I ask because there are testimonies who indicate that they were in pursuit of the troopers, as in chasing after them, before the repulse at CH. All the best, Noggy
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Post by noggy on Jul 3, 2022 3:17:16 GMT -6
The volley fire reported by the Reno/Benteen group was so unusual as to cause comment that it was a signal. A signal should be two things: 1. Agreed upon beforehand. Everyone should know what it is. 2. Something distinguished, out of the normal. A red flare in the middle of the ocean-type of thing. Standard doctrine for dismounted cavalry was to line up, and fire on command. Of course without any pre-battle agreed "distress signal", it could have been a desperate way to signal the others as noe riders would have made it. We know a fairly large mounted charge on Calhoun Hill was driven of with a couple of warriors and several ponies being hit. L Company was, if i remember correctly, the strongest of all the 5 companies, so they would have put out a decent amount of fire. A bunch of riding warriors would have been one of very few (maybe the only) occasions where the soldiers actually had a big enough target to use volleys rather than shooting now and then when a warrior was visible/within range. Calhoun Hill is also closer to Reno Hill than LSH/CR. Just a thought, of course. All the best and welcome onboard. Noggy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 5:40:12 GMT -6
The volley fire reported by the Reno/Benteen group was so unusual as to cause comment that it was a signal. We know a fairly large mounted charge on Calhoun Hill was driven of with a couple of warriors and several ponies being hit. L Company was, if i remember correctly, the strongest of all the 5 companies, so they would have put out a decent amount of fire. A bunch of riding warriors would have been one of very few (maybe the only) occasions where the soldiers actually had a big enough target to use volleys rather than shooting now and then when a warrior was visible/within range. Calhoun Hill is also closer to Reno Hill than LSH/CR. Just a thought, of course. Thanks for the welcome! I believe that the three companies were in a holding pattern while Custer scouted ahead with the other two. He'd already sent for Benteen and believed he was hurrying to meet him with the pack train. If he'd been under pressure at that point I think he would have gone into a defensive position with all five companies. Even Keogh seemed to be treating the indians as an annoyance rather than a threat. With regard to the amount of fire that L might have generated, the casings suggests that they weren't firing that much, just dealing with some infiltration perhaps. It seems like the C Company charge failed, and emboldened the indians, who then followed the survivors back and rolled up the whole C/I/L grouping. Going back to Isandhlwana and other actions of the Zulu war, it seemed like it was possible to hold off the Zulu, who were behaving more like an organized military unit, as long as you could maintain volley fire from a reasonable number of troops. Once discipline breaks down and people start to run they can't hold off attackers. If a hundred or more warriors run at L company can they fire fast enough to keep them at bay? If L broke, it would make it even harder for Keogh's people, who I don't think were even in line, to deal with the growing disorder.
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 3, 2022 5:58:51 GMT -6
We know a fairly large mounted charge on Calhoun Hill was driven of with a couple of warriors and several ponies being hit. L Company was, if i remember correctly, the strongest of all the 5 companies, so they would have put out a decent amount of fire. A bunch of riding warriors would have been one of very few (maybe the only) occasions where the soldiers actually had a big enough target to use volleys rather than shooting now and then when a warrior was visible/within range. Calhoun Hill is also closer to Reno Hill than LSH/CR. Just a thought, of course. Thanks for the welcome! I believe that the three companies were in a holding pattern while Custer scouted ahead with the other two. He'd already sent for Benteen and believed he was hurrying to meet him with the pack train. If he'd been under pressure at that point I think he would have gone into a defensive position with all five companies. Even Keogh seemed to be treating the indians as an annoyance rather than a threat. With regard to the amount of fire that L might have generated, the casings suggests that they weren't firing that much, just dealing with some infiltration perhaps. It seems like the C Company charge failed, and emboldened the indians, who then followed the survivors back and rolled up the whole C/I/L grouping. Going back to Isandhlwana and other actions of the Zulu war, it seemed like it was possible to hold off the Zulu, who were behaving more like an organized military unit, as long as you could maintain volley fire from a reasonable number of troops. Once discipline breaks down and people start to run they can't hold off attackers. If a hundred or more warriors run at L company can they fire fast enough to keep them at bay? If L broke, it would make it even harder for Keogh's people, who I don't think were even in line, to deal with the growing disorder. I don't think CIL was expecting anything at Battle Ridge, or occupying that much ground with only 120 soldiers. I think they were retreating. L was leading the retreat. Coming down the slope of Calhoun Hill, they ran into warriors coming from the Reno battle. I don't know, but I think Lieutenant Calhoun thought that by dismounting his troops and firing a few volleys he could scatter them. When he found that it was not possible he mounted his troop and climbed to the top of Calhoun Hill. He would think that on higher ground and with the help of I and L coming up behind, they would be able to stop the warriors.
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