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Post by coverup on Sept 3, 2021 20:35:35 GMT -6
Why do people even waste their time on the graves as markers of the battlefield? When burials are with plates, small sprinklings of dust and sagebrush. Even those that were there and came back a week later said the animals had dug out the bodies and scattered them. Knipe says he saw Custer but not his brother Tom and yet Godfrey said he saw Tom and recognized him by his Liberty and Initials tattoo. So no one can find that bunch of E company in deep ravine and yet no one takes into consideration in the Camp Notes the mentioning that the Infantry... (that was supposed to be only in the valley as mentioned by some officer that would not know it) had been seen moving the dead out of the gully where the 7th burial party said they knocked gravel down on them. The infantry then showed respect and carried them out of the ravine. Not a mystery just too many people on LSH. Then of course they had buffalo, snow storms and even those that chipped away at the monument move things around, the hay cutters in the valley putting a skull on a fence post, the indians unable to find Boyer and they looked numerous days, ... anyways trying to decide what happened at LSH and using markers is kind of ridiculous. From my readings the second placement of markers was at any place that may have looked like it was a grave or a cut out. With gravestones coming to the field in numbers that represent those that were present but not for the amount that were located. SO I just dont understand how people call themselves researchers and historians and use placements of markers and gravestones as justification for their inaccurate portrayals of what may have happened.
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Post by barneytom on Dec 27, 2021 9:47:58 GMT -6
I believe you can use them to get a rough idea where heavy fighting took place. As for pinpointing the spot certain people died. They are of dubious value. I do not think the scavengers would have drug the bodies too far from the general area of the original burials. So, just using it to get a vague idea of the movements and where fighting took place, I do put some value in that aspect.
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Post by noggy on Dec 27, 2021 12:57:09 GMT -6
I believe you can use them to get a rough idea where heavy fighting took place. As for pinpointing the spot certain people died. They are of dubious value. I do not think the scavengers would have drug the bodies too far from the general area of the original burials. So, just using it to get a vague idea of the movements and where fighting took place, I do put some value in that aspect. There is also the possibility some victorious warrior tied a corpse to his ponni and dragged him around, that someone wanted to carry a soldier to the village (it does seem like some bodies might have been burned during a victory feast) bud didn't bother etc etc. But I agree that the markers give a good idea of at least where the companies ended their fight. All the best, Noggy |
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Post by Colt45 on Dec 31, 2021 17:42:45 GMT -6
The markers only show a general view of where things happened. If you notice where all the markers are on LSH, you see them on the western face of LSH, that is, the slope of the hill, not the crest. That makes no military sense at all. In fact we know they shot their horses for breastworks on top of the hill, not on the slope. The bodies were buried on the slope due to the hardness of the soil. The top of the hill was leveled out for the road and monument.
As such, the markers generally don't indicate where a soldier fell, but rather where he was buried after the battle. In some cases, they do represent where a soldier fell, but not always. And we know some of them were moved after the battle. Case in point, Mark Kellogg's marker. It was originally down in the area of the flats. It now resides well away from there on the east side of LSH. So what they tell us is where the companies wound up in general, not in an exact or specific way. That does not mean they have no value in determining how the battle was fought. Artifacts, Indian accounts, and reports from the 27th and 28th of June 1876, combined with the markers give one a more complete picture of events, but not an exact accounting.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 1, 2022 9:36:23 GMT -6
Colt
I think Fred is working on something about the markers. He had Tom and myself look at a few to check numbers. One of the things we have learned in LE is making such things appear. A flashlight at 90 degrees is a big help sometimes. I did get into some ticks because I had to prone out near the markers.
Steve
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Post by herosrest on Jan 1, 2022 10:47:43 GMT -6
Chipping into the Mark Kellogg aspect of the markers. Happy New Year, all. In 1890, record left when the soldier's markers were placed indicates a wooden marker for Kellogg on Custer's Hill. A stone for Kellogg was provided in July 1896 by the New York Herald Publishing Company; (Greene; 2014;p47). At that time, Gibbon, Brisbin and Terry, had deceased. The Kellogg marker was placed on Last Stand Hill and over timeit was damaged and vandalised by souveneir hunters. A new marker was then provided to replace that on LSH and reported locally in the press. I do not have the article to hand but if memory serves Charles Kuhlman hand a hand in the proceedings as also T.B.Marquis. That is the history of the Kellogg marker on LSH. It does not indicate where Kellogg died or was buried by Mathey because no one knows. The wooden marker for Kellogg was on LSH in 1890. Gibbon retired in 1891 and passed away in February 1896. The only other person with personal knowledge of whom anyone is aware of, is Edward G. Mathey - who retired in 1896 and was in correspondence with Wlater M. Camp over various matters. There were two Kellogg markers, the first being replaced. What happened to the original which sat on LSH is unknown. A further complication with the LSH marker site is the re-interment and further reburial, of dead from Fort Fetterman. Discussed HERE.The point to note is the date of the Ft. P. Kearny reburials and the markers THEN put in place by Capt. Owen J. Sweet in 1890. I suspect that Capt. J.M.J. Sanno, and Company K, 7th Infantry, might be able to clear this one up. The site of the 1888 burials. When were the Ft. Phil Kearny markers erected? Were they presemt when Capt. Sweet placed the Custer markers in 1890? Sweet didn't mention them in his report. Here is Sweet's report on the 1890 markers placements. |
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