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Post by Bruce Robert on Jun 27, 2021 18:33:22 GMT -6
"Custer's Plan." Recon, no plan, or, if you will, planning during recon. No overarching plan. Splitting your command (last I checked, divide and conquer was supposed to be what the enemy tried to do to you, or as Nap. may have said, "never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake" - the NA's must have read Napoleon), not maintaining any connection with the other commands, making assumption after assumption, I could go on...
I suspect the idea of noncombatants crossed his mind. That isn't a plan. Nor, considering the state of the enemy's mindset at the time, was it going to work. Or, was Custer, at that point, desperate for any way out of the mess he found himself in? One point I am still not convinced of - though Fred has come closest to convincing me - is that Custer remained up until the end an acting agent. I still think it a plausible hypothesis he was under greater pressure than we take into account. It might not have been direct pressure, but the threat of pressure can be as bad, if not more so, than the actual. In short, he was at some point soon after ford B1 & B2, quickly transitioning from an acting agent to a reacting one. This quickly moved into an ever greater reacting state where his options were so limited he couldn't come up with a plan "on the fly," and then all too suddenly, it was strictly survival.
One aspect of this battle that causes confusion is the searching for rational explanations for his decisions. Two problems: 1. Battles are far less rational then given credit for; 2. Custer was not acting in a rational manner. Things don't add up because they don't add up (I know, a silly tautology but it makes the point). Or, to put it another way, 1+1 will never equal 3, no matter how hard we try to make it so. Some of Custer's decisions make sense, and only appear to be foolish after the fact, which he could not have known. But much remains a 1+1=3.
Perhaps the simplest answer: He was outfought. Outmaneuvered, outmanned, outcommanded, etc.. In almost every way, them injuns wooped his ass. I've said this before, the question should not be how did Custer lose, but how did the enemy win? Or its converse, how the hell could Custer have won? That day, in that way, he could not, nor was he going to find a way, short of divine intervention.
It does not condemn him, commanders are human, and humans mess up (look at Lee at Gettysburg, or McClellan at Sharpsburg/Anteirtem, both profoundly more important battles than Greasy Grass/Bighorn).
Nor, though why after all these years - ad infinitum - do I need to say this, did Benteen, and yes, I will venture to include, Reno. But of course, long after I am some archeologist's dusty find at some obscure dig, it will still need to be said. Apparently, the ghost of Libby will never rest. Perhaps someone should take it upon themself to find it, and drive a stake thru its vampiric heart. Of course, I jest.
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Post by noggy on Jun 28, 2021 1:55:47 GMT -6
Montrose, couldn't agree with you more regarding the lack of making more use of the Indian scouts. Given that the Sioux seemed far more keen to focus their attention on the Ree scouts over on the left of the line, choosing to go after them rather than the troopers during the early part of the fight, one wonders it might have been a good idea to use them as a diversionary tactic to temporally draw the enemies attention away from the main army whilst they got themselves in a better position. Now I'm no expert on the battle of the Rosebud, but from what I've read, it would seem that without the courage and tenacity of his Indian allies ~ the Crows and Shoshones, he would have had a much harder time of it, and would have probably taken a lot more casualties. Shan Crook on the other hand had over 250 Crow and Shoshone auxiliaries, not scouts, who were expected to join in the fighting. As it turned out, they kept out of the fighting until Captain Henry was wounded and about to be captured, which gave then the chance to execute one of their traditional battle tactics, rescuing a wounded comrade. I'm no expert on the battle of Rosebud, my knowledge about it stems primarily from when mentioned in material about LBH, a couple of fairly short articles here and there, plus the Almighty Wikipedia. But in all of them, as I recall, Crook's allied NAs are the first ones from the Wyoming column to engage with the "hostiles"..? Noggy
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Post by shan on Jun 28, 2021 8:41:18 GMT -6
Bruce, excellent analysis, and I don't say that just because it agrees with some of my ideas.
Yes, things go wrong, we all make mistakes. We think the road ahead looks clear so we pull out to overtake the car in front, and as we do, so we chose the wrong gear and thus lose speed, then, before can rectify it, a car travelling at speed appears in the opposite lane, and we have no where to go. How many times have I nearly made that decision myself and then thanked god that I didn't?
You say, and I paraphrase, "One aspect of this battle that causes confusion is searching for a rational explanation for his decisions, but Battles are far less rational than given credit for; things just don't add up because they don't add up.
I've sometimes wondered why we all spend so much time on these boards looking for a rational answer to what went wrong ~ the question in itself is a rather silly one ~ for for one of the teams that were involved, everything went right. Oh I know the answer well enough, its fun, and it passes the time, and besides, we all hope that one day something will turn up one day that that solves the mystery, but it never does.
For him, something went wrong early on, something he couldn't put right, and from then on, the question becomes how long did it take. I've always felt that it was over a lot quicker than many would wish, much of the Indian testimony indicates that this was so, but then in some ways we don't want to listen to them.
Again, I agree with you about Reno and Benteen. Their easy to blame, the case against them is there for all to see. But I'd hazard a guess that when Reno left the shelter of the trees, he intended to headed back the way he came. He knew the lay out of the land, and even better, he knew that the ford was easy to cross, but then things went wrong and he found himself being squeezed and nudged into using a crossing at an unsuitable place, with predictable results.
As to Benteen. Well in some ways he was his own worst enemy, but I don't believe for one moment that he deliberately dawdled, or that he held back from going to the sound of the guns, things just took longer than he thought that's all, and besides, he couldn't, or wouldn't have imagine in his wildest dreams that Custer couldn't handle what was happening over beyond the ridge.
Hmm, oh dear, I'm expecting flack. Shan
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Post by herosrest on Jun 28, 2021 20:09:55 GMT -6
Behind you............... It was a cluster shambles for the army.
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Post by hunkpatila on Jul 3, 2021 12:21:27 GMT -6
Crook on the other hand had over 250 Crow and Shoshone auxiliaries, not scouts, who were expected to join in the fighting. As it turned out, they kept out of the fighting until Captain Henry was wounded and about to be captured, which gave then the chance to execute one of their traditional battle tactics, rescuing a wounded comrade. I'm no expert on the battle of Rosebud, my knowledge about it stems primarily from when mentioned in material about LBH, a couple of fairly short articles here and there, plus the Almighty Wikipedia. But in all of them, as I recall, Crook's allied NAs are the first ones from the Wyoming column to engage with the "hostiles"..? Noggy Gentlemen, my apologies. Relying on my memory for the Rosebud fight, proved quite clearly that I shouldn’t! Noggy is more or less correct to state that Crook’s Indian allies were the first to engage. In fact, it was a party of about 30 Crow and Shoshone who had gone out to scout [yes, some of them were used as scouts], who raced back into Crook’s camp about 8.30 a.m., shouting out warnings, just ahead of the Lakota/Cheyennes attackers. They then formed a defensive line with the pickets to hold off the initial charge of the attackers. About an hour later, all of Crook’s Indian allies had formed a more heavily manned defensive position with the pickets and miners. Later they supported the skirmishers deployed by Anson Mills and were involved in charges against the enemy and whilst idle at one point were involved in the rescue of Captain Henry. I can only reiterate however, that any relevance between Custer’s 30-40 scouts who were specifically told to go and not get involved in the fighting and Crook’s 250 plus auxiliaries who were heavily involved at the Rosebud is superficial at best and pointless at worst. Once again, my apologies for my original misleading statement. “Hunk” Papa
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Post by noggy on Jul 3, 2021 13:41:11 GMT -6
I'm no expert on the battle of Rosebud, my knowledge about it stems primarily from when mentioned in material about LBH, a couple of fairly short articles here and there, plus the Almighty Wikipedia. But in all of them, as I recall, Crook's allied NAs are the first ones from the Wyoming column to engage with the "hostiles"..? Noggy Gentlemen, my apologies. Relying on my memory for the Rosebud fight, proved quite clearly that I shouldn’t! I'm not 40 years old yet, but this morning (let's just say we had some beers last night) I struggled to remember when my birthday is. Rosebud who??? All the best, Noggy
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Post by hunkpatila on Jul 4, 2021 6:57:44 GMT -6
Gentlemen, my apologies. Relying on my memory for the Rosebud fight, proved quite clearly that I shouldn’t! I'm not 40 years old yet, but this morning (let's just say we had some beers last night) I struggled to remember when my birthday is. Rosebud who??? All the best, Noggy As I'm more than twice your age my memory is in need of a refit as already demonstrated, but Rosebud does ring a bell with me as my boyhood recollection is of Charles Foster Kane's sled in 'Citizen Kane.' I'll have some beers and promptly forget! Stay safe young man. "Hunk" Papa
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Post by custermania on Aug 12, 2021 10:28:47 GMT -6
Reno imo was a filler out. Meaning he used Reno to see What the Indians would do. I think when he saw them fighting and with force he turned right because he saw all the woman and children running away and like crazy Horse said he must of mistaken them for the village running away. Washita yes he killed all the warriors first than took hostages so the other Indians couldn’t strike. But didn’t Martini say Custer and the other officers thought they could get to the woman before Warriors came and this would make them stop fighting? And they all thought it was possible? It might not been a set plan but away to get out of the mess if it got through thick. Like a Hail Mary in football
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