My 1 & 1/2 cents theroy....

[nomann]

That Custer deceied to use the same tactics he used in Battle of Washita River in 1868:
One part of his forces would charge the Indian camp...using shock and suprise to stun and disorganized Indians before they could mount a defense...and then Custer would ride in with a main force to scatter the rements..and take women and children as captives....leaving the rements of the Indians without food, shelter or their families and then forvce them to surrender to reservations...or starve....

Battle of Little Bighorn.... Reno with three companies to charge and scatter the Indian camps...he may have had a fair chance of shock and disorganig the camps as planned..{The Indians were suprized}..see the size..Reno elected to form a skirmish line...which was charged...broken and froced to retreat....about 32 killed and over 21 missing {of whom some survived to join reno/Benteen forces} the rements of Reno companies meet up with compines under Benteen and settled in for a seige



Custer with his five companies...rode along north among buffs to try to attack from the North and capture the Noncobanents..which he expected to be see fleeing [Theroy]
one small group went ahead to scout a ford....apparently an officer {Lt Sturgis{?} was killed...instead of retreating to join the Reno Benteen forces..Custer may have tried to continue his plan of capture the conbamants...until he found his froces..surrounded....the five companies...did try to make a stand.....but they were spread out....they couldnt even make a "Square defense"... and were forced under Indian charges...to retreat backwards...about 30 to 45 Minuites...Benteen men heard volley shots...the Indians though the soldiers were cracy..in fact may have been volley shots singling for help....but it was too late....the Weir Detachment tried to go forward to help..but all he could see were Indians firing at forms on the ground indicaticn that within a 45 to 60 minuites...all the members of Custers command were dead....Custer killed in hand to command combat by White Bull..although the the Lakota did not know who he was fighting until years later....

The seige of Reno/Benteen command contiun ed...the rest of the day ...  

Company E...and Deep ravine reportably was where this company was wiped out.....yet I heard different estimes of from a dozen...to many more were found....one theroy is that the designation Deep Ravine not only referenced to the ravine proper but also the entire drainage system as well....which means they were scattered over a large section...Interestingly See the National Georgrhic Article on Little Bighorn  archagalogy map on artifacts found in Deep Ravine Proper....Mitch Boyer was repoatbly killed in Deep Ravine but his remains were found yards distant from the Ravien Proper
ALso of Interest is the fact of these 1876-1877 pcitures looking down from LASt Stand Hill to the  Deep ravine Proper
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn#/media/File:Bones_at_Little_Big_Horn_1876.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn#/media/File:Custer's_Last_Stand,_1877.png

If Deep Ravine held a whole company wiped out...it should have been full with Human and horse bones...yet except for a few men standing in distant..I cant see any concnetrations of scattered rememnts.....part of the so-called "South Skirmish Line"....spread over a wide area south of LAst Stand Hill...

related Link 
lbha.proboards.com/thread/5457/deep-ravine-company-query?page=1&scrollTo=121597

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

My view is that Custer attempted what he said he would do. Cross the river and capture the village. The point being to destroy the property and food supply. Game over and the roamers were left to wander to reservations once the horse herds could be dispersed. The crossing was intended for the Medicine Tail/Deep Coulee fords, Benteen was ordered up to join Reno and for reasons unknow, the companies with Custer stalled and were cut off from the regiment and destroyed in detail.

It was a stunning and quite brutal revenge.

Nelson A.Miles took participants who fought and were scouting for him in 1878, and investigated what happened. He concluded as you, that a lack of horse bones along SSL was instructive.

There are some problems with the theory, despite modern research. Long story short - horse bones were gathered to a cordwood monument attributed to Capt. Sanderson but i'm not so sure about that.

The image here is Oscar F. Long's Gathered Bones. and he visited and mapped the battlefield in 1878. Possibly 1877 also and that was when the officer's bodies were removed and Sheridan visited and the ground and graves tidied several times. The Keogh marker was put up in 1877 when his company were there and it was photographed. Just some of the mysteries to be contemplated.

[shan]

Hi herosrest,

Sorry about this, but I thought I'd come over here onto this board for awhile to pursue a few matters with you whilst the others on the other board fight things out between themselves.

First thing to say, is that although I've been there, and have walked the field rather than driven it, given that the battle happened over such a vast distance, its often very hard to hold the different aspects in your head and then try and place them on your mental map whilst visiting these boards. In that respect I feel very sorry for those who haven't been lucky enough to visit the battlefield, for even though I have, I still find find that the various maps which others put up
to try and help us, only to serve to confuse rather than confirm.

However, to get to my point. When I was there back in 2001, the attempted crossing at MTF wasn't talked of as being a matter of choice between two separate places, but was just the one option, which was the one that faced you as you exited MTC. Now days, it seems that most people favour the Realbird crossing, which is over towards the Deep coulee end of the river.

But this has led me to wonder how much this small part of the battlefield has changed since the battle. For as we all know, rivers move about, and sometimes the movement is subtle rather than impressive. In which case, one can't help but wonder if, what may have been a half reasonable crossing one year ~~ the year of the battle ~~ could have shifted down the river a few years later when all these people were making they're maps.

With regards to that though, I was very impressed by the video clip that you put up on the other board, the one which showed an ariel view of a number of men trying to cross at MTC. The river didn't look too high from what one could see, but they were having a number of problems doing it successfully, and there only a dozen or so of them rather than five companies that Custer had.

As I said over there, it made me re-think the problem that they faced, but more importantly than that, someone ~~ I think it was Mark, went onto to say that what Custer would have been looking for, was a ford that was wide enough for them to cross in spread out lines rather than bunched up in columns, which would of course have presented a far better target for the enemy over on the other side. Sometimes its these simple things that help one change ones mind about something that seemed unfathomable, but then that being said, did Custer really think that he had enough time to go wandering around the landscape looking for a ford that would be a better fit?

Personally I think not, for I'd imagine that he was already becoming aware, as he sat there contemplating the river down at MTF, that Reno's attack had stalled. And as if that wasn't bad enough, I'm sure it was becoming apparent that the sheer numbers of warriors who were present in this ants nest he was currently stirring up, were more than willing and able to come out and fight. So no, time certainly wasn't on his side, in which case, why not cross and just go for it? Yes, he was going to take some casualties, but as of the moment, the resistance was light, and besides, what else was he going to do?

Shan

[herosrest]

Mar 9, 2021 10:03:28 GMT -6 shan said:

Hi herosrest,

Sorry about this, but I thought I'd come over here onto this board for awhile to pursue a few matters with you whilst the others on the other board fight things out between themselves.

First thing to say, is that although I've been there, and have walked the field rather than driven it, given that the battle happened over such a vast distance, its often very hard to hold the different aspects in your head and then try and place them on your mental map whilst visiting these boards. In that respect I feel very sorry for those who haven't been lucky enough to visit the battlefield, for even though I have, I still find find that the various maps which others put up
to try and help us, only to serve to confuse rather than confirm.

However, to get to my point. When I was there back in 2001, the attempted crossing at MTF wasn't talked of as being a matter of choice between two separate places, but was just the one option, which was the one that faced you as you exited MTC. Now days, it seems that most people favour the Realbird crossing, which is over towards the Deep coulee end of the river.

But this has led me to wonder how much this small part of the battlefield has changed since the battle. For as we all know, rivers move about, and sometimes the movement is subtle rather than impressive. In which case, one can't help but wonder if, what may have been a half reasonable crossing one year ~~ the year of the battle ~~ could have shifted down the river a few years later when all these people were making they're maps.

With regards to that though, I was very impressed by the video clip that you put up on the other board, the one which showed an ariel view of a number of men trying to cross at MTC. The river didn't look too high from what one could see, but they were having a number of problems doing it successfully, and there only a dozen or so of them rather than five companies that Custer had.

As I said over there, it made me re-think the problem that they faced, but more importantly than that, someone ~~ I think it was Mark, went onto to say that what Custer would have been looking for, was a ford that was wide enough for them to cross in spread out lines rather than bunched up in columns, which would of course have presented a far better target for the enemy over on the other side. Sometimes its these simple things that help one change ones mind about something that seemed unfathomable, but then that being said, did Custer really think that he had enough time to go wandering around the landscape looking for a ford that would be a better fit?

Personally I think not, for I'd imagine that he was already becoming aware, as he sat there contemplating the river down at MTF, that Reno's attack had stalled. And as if that wasn't bad enough, I'm sure it was becoming apparent that the sheer numbers of warriors who were present in this ants nest he was currently stirring up, were more than willing and able to come out and fight. So no, time certainly wasn't on his side, in which case, why not cross and just go for it? Yes, he was going to take some casualties, but as of the moment, the resistance was light, and besides, what else was he going to do?

Shan

Hi, working on it - pulling thoughts together.


There is an incredible amount of original information from those who were there and then heaps more from those there immediately afterwards and then those along later and then the train wreck of investigation and study ever since. It is what is and the lesson of course is make personal sense of it with an open mind because there are quite open and also dark agendas all over.

Maguire's B. Absolutely no evidence of a crossing. Two horses into the water and turned back to the east bank.

There is a broad confusion that the crossing/s were defended and that is not so. Here's why. The Cheyenne's guarding the sacred Hat (Roan Bear) and a few others 'crossed' the river to engage the soldiers. They did not engage from the valley side. The same is true of Yellow Nose who went over with a few others early on and got up to God knows what. Amongst those with Roan Bear was White Shield and he had bow and arrows, having returned from fishing the river. He left Roan Bear and went to his tipi for guns and medicine. He rode into battle then with Cheyennes who ended up towards Custer Hill. That is Two Moons who hit Finley Finkle, broke through and went along and up Deep Coulee way to LSH.

Now, White Shield got back to his lodge and the village was empty with his mum, Mrs Spotted Wolf, waiting for him with his war pony. The important bit is that the camps had emptied out and we can variously work out what hag happened and where they were but that is the stuff of nightmares. Reno was getting a stuffing and there is nothing to suggest an organised Indian reserve tracking the five companies east of the river.

If Custer wasnted over the river, he was over. Put 50 or a hundred guns up on the cutbank and nothing opposite could move a hair without being blown apart. You put a squad over, another behind it, a company and hold the treeline and you are across. Yes there might be a casualty or two but the village was empty and the guys were upriver stuffing Reno.

So something dramatic resulted to turn back the two horses which went into the water, or there was a reason not to cross Maguire's B. If they wanted to cross it, it could be done when the soldiers were there.

They didn't do that and moved downriver and White Shield thought they were going to cross into the village. He identified the crossing beyond any reasonable confusion and that the troops then halted and dismounted.

Subsequently, the troops moved away from the river and we know where they died. Two Moons described the movement and because the Cheyennes were opposite the divide of Deep Coulee/MTC, we know were he could see and that is a horizon from Greasy Grass Hill swinging right along Deep Coulee and over NC ridge towards MTC and bluffs there. That is where he saw what he saw, if you believe him. When he crossed with his band they moved at Finley Finkle.

Cross on a broad front - fine. Cross quickly against no opposition - fine. There was no opposition. Something else was going on.

I do not believe Custer, Keogh or Yates were aware ot Reno's retreat until warriors came down off Weir's Peak at them. No way to do it without dust and there were hundreds.



There are a number of good theories and one puts all five companies much further down river for a crossing but I cannot fathom any reason for it besides trying to explain why the newspaper reporter was found on his own down there and where he was found is actually a mystery.

Fin.

[wild]

What undid Custer was the Springfield single-shot carbine rifle.
This weapon gave the regiment the option of going on the defensive. It allowed Reno to abort his charge and go into skirmish line. True cavalry once the charge order was given would charge home....they were committed.
The sabre in the charge was a better option than the Springfield on foot.
It is a fearsome weapon in close quarter fighting.
The distance Reno covered in his retreat if in the other direction probably would have taken him to the end of the village and ford D[?]
This would have presented Custer with a much more positive tactical situation than the one that confronted him on his arrival at Weir point.

Best
Richard

[wild]

Further I have not read that fire control was employed anywhere on the battlefield.
What we had instead was a dismounted line of troopers fighting their own personal local firefights.
Controlled volley fire is so much more effective . It gives the troops much more confidence and has the reverse effect on the enemy.
Having said that, Custers troops were nothing more than colonial police totally unfit for what they encountered that day.
The regiment had so many flaws that any combination of them would have proved fatal. a thundering defeat was probably the best result they could have hoped for.

Best regards to any old friends still lurking about the parish,
Richard

[AZ Ranger]

Best wishes to you to Wild

AZ Ranger

[wild]

Hurrah AZ


Futher.... there was a moment of sublime farce when the distance between all units as they grew closer to the enemy increased. I no longer have my maps and notes but I guess the the moment of greatest dispersal came at the point of first contact with the Indians [ when it should have been the point of greatest concentration].. And any improvement derived from Benteen speeding up was negated by Custer heading North away from the support he had so urgently requested.
If somehow they unearthed evidence that Custer tried to negotiate a surrender of his entire command it would not come as a suprise.
Best
Richard

[logan]

Terrain. Volley-fire in my opinion is only good if the terrain permits it and numerous targets present themselves, instead of a volley fired at Indians who were using the ground to appear and disappear just as quick, rounds wasted rather than individually aimed at known Indian locations, or to deal with random appearances.

Mentioning colonial police, the only comparison I can give, is the Natal Mounted Police and other colonial volunteers at Isandhlwana, who were given fire commands by Col Durnford against Zulus heading up the slope towards them, holding them back for a long time before being finally overcome, and although not professional soldiers, were very much to the fore at the front of the British camp, all dying with the officer commanding in a position known as ‘Durnford’s Last Stand’.

[wild]

logan
Good Points

Volley fire is controlled firing. The rate of fire and target being determined by the company or battalion commander.
He determines the point of greatest danger. Any foe breaking cover risks an entire volley in his direction.Same goes for
beating down incoming fire. The more industrious enemy snipers bringing a volley of perhaps 100 rounds down on his position.
The unit works as a fire team not as individuals . A volley going off is so much more impressive than sporadic firing also boosts the morale of those in the firing line.

Durnfords tactics at Isandhlwana are interesting of course he was mounted with firearms while his enemy was afoot without firearms.

Best
Richard

[noggy]

Mar 19, 2021 9:53:32 GMT -6 logan said:

Mentioning colonial police, the only comparison I can give, is the Natal Mounted Police and other colonial volunteers at Isandhlwana, who were given fire commands by Col Durnford against Zulus heading up the slope towards them, holding them back for a long time before being finally overcome, and although not professional soldiers, were very much to the fore at the front of the British camp, all dying with the officer commanding in a position known as ‘Durnford’s Last Stand’.

I think this article about the battle of Lugalo in 1891  might interest many people here weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/03/07/the-battle-of-lugalo-17-august-1891/

Note how the commanding officer is killed with the bulk of his unit whole the rest retreat to a hill, holding out there and ultimately surviving, how the "leading" native chief actually didn't do any fighting, how it is speculated in one officer/white fighting harder than the rest.... sounds familiar..? Oh and by the way, afterwards the Schutztruppe (German Colonial forces) went through a significant re-structuralisation (not a word, i guess), something the allies would notice when they onvaded the colony,


All the best,
Noggy

[noggy]

Mar 17, 2021 1:35:23 GMT -6 wild said:

The sabre in the charge was a better option than the Springfield on foot.

If you can use it. And ride.

Hope you and everyone else here are doing well.

[wild]

Hi Noggy

"If you can use it. And ride"

Does it not say cavalry on the tin?

Best
Richard