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Post by crzhrs on Mar 29, 2021 10:54:28 GMT -6
Custer did look beyond his own lifetime for fame and popularity.
As he grew older he stated:
". . . My every thought was ambitious--not to be wealthy, not to be learned, but to be great. I desired to link my name with acts & men, and in such a manner as to be a mark of honor--not only to the present, but to future generations."
Custer was concerned about his legacy and every step he took in life it was to be remembered as "great."
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 29, 2021 11:59:58 GMT -6
Unfortunately, what happens after your death is out of your control, though Libbie did continue in keeping Custer alive in people’s’ memory for many years afterwards.
If Libbie hadn’t done this, would he have faded away eventually ?
I’ll leave no everlasting memory, though part of me would like to have my name associated with the defence of a British officer for many years, if the discussion forums are archived for future reference, though highly unlikely, as I’ve not done anything else that would be considered noteworthy in my own life, but involving myself in the story of a reasonably famous historical figure, might leave a lasting impression, albeit my role being relatively minor.
Then again, that is out of my control, as even now I know many I had dealings with in this wouldn’t speak well of me after I was no longer around.
It’s definitely those who do accomplish much in their lives, are more likely to think how they will be remembered in the world, outside of family and friends, after their death.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 29, 2021 13:45:07 GMT -6
I suspect that Custer was naively competitive and in coming to terms with the staff role for McClellan found his feet and measure. He developed an understanding of leadership from the front and found that aggressive assault suited him. He grew bigger balls and pretty much everyone knew it would kill him.
At time of his death he had progressed to the Army's senior Lt. Col and as regiments came up he had first choice. Grant wasn't going to last forever and survived Custer in office but months. He maybe should have just furloughed until '77.
He was poorly served at LBH with a pair that cared not one jot - glad to see him fail but my that backfired. I was skimming An Obituary for Reno this afternoon and just yawned. He had a quite brilliantly sad life but deserves none of any sympathy. He is a Confedrate foil.
Regards. If you don't play, try chess. Even online it is mildly distracting in combination with a modest spirit.
Be well.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 29, 2021 14:24:21 GMT -6
Yes, Libby was probably the main supporter of her husband after his death.
In fact she kept it up until the day she died in 1933!
Once Libby died the criticism of Custer came out in full force starting with Van De Water's "Glory Hunter" in 1934 and it hasn't stopped since!
Whether this was the type of "fame" Custer wanted . . . he did end up famous or for many infamous!
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 29, 2021 14:43:37 GMT -6
I do play computer chess....but very badly !
Do you think LBH as well as Isandhlwana were a good example of Fool’s Mate...one of the quickest checkmates.
Military strategy tends to be compared to chess often, is it fair to say this is a good description in chess-speak for both battles ?
Yes, I think to be remembered at all 100+ years later and studied in-depth by many thousands of people is quite something, and the thing is, even the best people from history will have negativity directed at them after their deaths.
It’s impossible to be liked by everybody I guess
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Post by herosrest on Mar 29, 2021 15:51:31 GMT -6
Both battles, both campaigns were disasters of the very highest order. Mitigating that is running around the middle of nowhere thousands and hundreds of miles from support and supplies. Yet this has been going on for thousands of years and so have the disasters. Custer was significant within living memory for the ACW outcome and equally reviled and adored. Reno's son was married to a Belle of the South. The Montana mayhem of fiascos (remember there were a series of misfires) coincided the Centennial to amplify outrage enormously and dampened Liberal opinion although not enough to save Grant's Presidency. It was what it was with Custer served by two subordinates happy to see him fail. He did that in spades. The rest was embarrassed cover-up, cover your little donkey, I told you so, and it wasn'y me or my fault. He, Custer, deserved a much bigger monument and in time, if our warlike ways are tamed then one day they may all be torn down. What do you think? Get rid of the army - or i'll kill you It is an extraordinarily beautiful work of masonry, isn't it. They got it right 2nd time. Working out when the repairs were made is an interesting exercise.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 29, 2021 17:43:16 GMT -6
My experience in the study of history, is how quickly how one regiment/corps is blamed by others for a defeat that involved the deaths of many of their own regiment/corps.
I’ve heard of rivalry between regiments/corps, but it does concern me that might also involve the personal interest militarily to clear your own unit’s name, to the point of damning a good man.
I’ve read of Custer’s refusal of Gatling guns and/or the 2nd Cavalry, but the latter two were criticised for not insisting.
Nobody want to hear of regiment pride or how useless some weaponry is in the terrain to be transversed.
How do you rectify such criticism from so many angles, when on the field and reacting to developments real time....armchair generals ?
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 29, 2021 18:05:24 GMT -6
There's is or was a website that was mostly supported of Custer. I can't remember the name of the website. Don't know if it still around. I do remember that it was link to the other forum, they were link to each other. I think the owner of that website is the owner of the other IBHA forum, not sure about it. There he talk about the cover up and lot of other stuff. I believed he has a account with this forum and has posted a great dell of information on this forum and his.
Was the cover up Reno and Benteen doing or was it a government cover up? I do remember Benteen mentioning seeing fighting in the valley when he was approaching Reno hill.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 29, 2021 18:56:11 GMT -6
Again, with LBH being a big subject with many theories, it is difficult to pin down exactly what is or was relevant.
Custer’s belief in the 7th accomplishing everything, or the lack of insisting he needed support from the other units, as come what may, the 7th might’ve handled events allocated to their involvement, but in actuality needed other units as reserves, reinforcements to back him up.
Why was he given such leeway, by the very fact he was offered Gatlings and other cavalry, there seemed to be the thought things were going to be harder won?
Does leave open the question - okay, let’s see if the 7th is up to it, if he doesn’t want our help, then to hell with him, let’s see how that plays out.
Custer was n a position that he could still be ordered to do things, why give him a free rein, as it was obvious he’d abuse it for his own gains !
Did the senior officers believe in ‘Custer’s Luck’ or were they intimidated by his popularity and how it might affect their future prospects ?
Custer for president ? Will he remember I hindered his finale as a military commander ?
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 29, 2021 19:18:15 GMT -6
I doubt he would have won the Presidency if he had won, if women and children were kill. People even back then were squeamish with things about that.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 30, 2021 3:37:49 GMT -6
I’ve never really bought in to the idea of Custer as president, though it does make you wonder about the man and his ego, if he was to be given such power too.
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Post by mikerobel on Mar 30, 2021 8:31:22 GMT -6
I recently bought and read the book. While it has some interesting points and the included fold out map was nice, I found it tiresome in the extreme, frequently able to only read 3 -5 pages at a time. My observation is, once one thinks there is a conspiracy, then are behind every building, tree, and blade of grass. They have to be in order to be sustained. What could be a series of honest mistakes can be lumped into an evil deed.
I find it very hard to believe that various officers would go to the lengths described in the book. I just simply can't fathom a general officer, a veteran of the carnage of the civil war, would sacrifice part of a regiment to get even with a LY COL. Or that key subordinates would fail to take action just because they don't like their commander. I've worked for commander's I despised, but I never would have failed to carry out an order or go to someone's aid of out pique.
Hainv said all that, I recommend the book because it is always good to get out of your head/model and deliberately seek out stories from the other side, if only to better arm yourself against their opinions.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 30, 2021 8:56:02 GMT -6
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. It is over time I realised that books I was advised not to get, were mostly ones I should get, as those advising against them probably had their own set thoughts, which the books didn’t follow or they didn’t agree with, so strangely tried to prevent others considering them.
A subject has to be ‘attacked’ literally from all sides, instead of those more appealing, as how can you decide fully by neglecting other approaches, that might actually offer something you didn’t expect.
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Post by noggy on Mar 31, 2021 3:15:00 GMT -6
There's is or was a website that was mostly supported of Custer. I can't remember the name of the website. Don't know if it still around. I do remember that it was link to the other forum, they were link to each other. I think the owner of that website is the owner of the other IBHA forum, not sure about it. There he talk about the cover up and lot of other stuff. I believed he has a account with this forum and has posted a great dell of information on this forum and his. Was the cover up Reno and Benteen doing or was it a government cover up? I do remember Benteen mentioning seeing fighting in the valley when he was approaching Reno hill. This mess, maybe? custer.over-blog.com/article-12597189.html It is a former member who as far as I'm concerned was/is a bit insane. Noggy
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Post by noggy on Mar 31, 2021 3:22:10 GMT -6
Do you think LBH as well as Isandhlwana were a good example of Fool’s Mate...one of the quickest checkmates. I guess it would be most correct to say there were played to games at LBH, with GAC being checkmated (not a Fool's mate, to many maneuvers) and Reno, despite loosing way more pieces than the opponent, managed to get a remis (maybe not the best term since the Indians in theory could continue making moves, but in chess you don't have the same type of "draw" as in football) Noggy
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