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Post by noggy on Oct 1, 2019 12:19:38 GMT -6
Hi
This is a basic question I`m sure many feel is common knowledge.
Recently reading through some stuff has made me a little unsure regarding the route Custer took from Calhoun Hill towards Last Stand Hill, and what the NAs across the Bighorn could have seen of this movement. Would the soldiers have been visible from the other side of the river when on Battle ridge
A. All/most of the time B. 50/50 concealed /visible C. Mostly concealed
I think I`ve read a little bit of everything. Now, I`ve never been to the battlefield myself. Therefor I have no idea of the terrain. What`s the experts` (you guys) ruling?
And btw; I`ve seen many great maps/illustrations made here regarding tons of things, but can`t remember if I have seen anything illustrating Custer`s route. If anyone has something like that they could share or link to, I`d be very thankful.
All the best, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Oct 1, 2019 14:50:22 GMT -6
Noggy, Custer probably rode toward ford D from Calhoun hill by using the east side of battle ridge. He would have been concealed to a viewer near the river until he came around the north end of LSH, where he would have followed the drainage to get to the river. If he rode on the west side of battle ridge, he would have been visible to anyone along the river.
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Post by noggy on Oct 2, 2019 11:55:13 GMT -6
Noggy, Custer probably rode toward ford D from Calhoun hill by using the east side of battle ridge. He would have been concealed to a viewer near the river until he came around the north end of LSH, where he would have followed the drainage to get to the river. If he rode on the west side of battle ridge, he would have been visible to anyone along the river. Hi Thank you for the reply. The pinpointing of North end of LSH is a really helpful. Sticking to the Eastern part of BR would ofc be the logical thing, as they would want to be out of sight. I`ve never been there, so I just didn`t know if the terrain there allowed them to move there all the time, or maybe had to move to the higher ground/western side at times. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 2, 2019 13:51:34 GMT -6
Hi Geir, have a look at the Wolftooth/John Stands In Timber map, which was drawn on the battlefield itself by a warrior who was there, it is easy to follow asthe new road system is also added to the map and you can see how Custer left Blummer ridge, across deep coulee, up to Calhoun hill and along the east side of battle ridge.
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Post by noggy on Oct 3, 2019 3:11:51 GMT -6
Hi Geir, have a look at the Wolftooth/John Stands In Timber map, which was drawn on the battlefield itself by a warrior who was there, it is easy to follow asthe new road system is also added to the map and you can see how Custer left Blummer ridge, across deep coulee, up to Calhoun hill and along the east side of battle ridge. Cheers Ian Where is this map from? Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 3, 2019 4:48:52 GMT -6
Hi Geir, that map is all over the place as it is a very famous map, see if you can get hold of a copy of 'drawing battle lines' it is full of maps and Mike Donohue explains the maps too along with accounts.
The JSIT map above, is layed down by Wolftooth who actuall followed the soldiers from Blummer/Luce ridges right past LSH, so I reckon there is no better map explaining the route Custer took. But on the blue board, we are trying to find out through Indian accounts, of a second trail from near ford B to cemetery ridge and this was a trail left by E Company. There is a trail on the Maguire maps and on capt. Benteens map too, and we are trying to see if E and maybe F, left Custer in MTC just after Martini left with the note and went down MTF to the flats near ford B and on to cemetery ridge to rejoin the command.
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Post by noggy on Oct 3, 2019 5:28:30 GMT -6
I make a decent earning but £125 seems stiff
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Post by shan on Oct 3, 2019 8:16:27 GMT -6
Yan,
quick question, what's the blue board?
thanks shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 3, 2019 8:57:05 GMT -6
Hi Shan, I am not at liberty to say, I may get into trouble.
Yan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 3, 2019 8:59:40 GMT -6
I make a decent earning but £125 seems stiff Well Geir, I was luck in that respect, an American chap, who we don't see anymore, sent me the book free of charge. It was very kind of him because apart from the price of the book, the shipping costs came to $49, I know this because it was on the package. Yan
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Post by noggy on Oct 3, 2019 13:19:10 GMT -6
Hi Geir, that map is all over the place True, I thought I`d seen it "live" and yep; it is also in A Cheyenne Voice: The Complete John Stands in Timber Interviews . Which I have lying here somewhere. Good times. Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 3, 2019 13:31:05 GMT -6
I don't think anyone can dispute this data as it was conducted without a translator, many Indian accounts could have been made in valid by these interviews and one of the points I have been making for years is that the ford and coulee are regarded as being ford B and MTC, but infact it could have been ford D and Crazy Horse Ravine, to the Indians these were just land marks with no names, so it was the white man who added the names and virtually laid in stone what they think took place.
Rule of thumb is that any Cheyenne account could be regarded as being around ford D and the Sioux accounts are ford B as most of the Sioux were after Reno, while the Cheyenne were up north waiting in the benches for Custer to cross at ford D.
Well thats my view anyway.
Yan
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Post by noggy on Oct 3, 2019 14:59:58 GMT -6
Rule of thumb is that any Cheyenne account could be regarded as being around ford D and the Sioux accounts are ford B as most of the Sioux were after Reno, while the Cheyenne were up north waiting in the benches for Custer to cross at ford D. No big argument from me. But still, since I don`t like absolutes, not all Cheyenne warriors went straight North to hang around Ford D waiting for Custer the moment Reno showed up, We know several helped fight off Reno. Wooden Leg and others for example went there, and not North. He named several warriors with him in what obviously was the Reno fight. It would be a logical thing to go towards the fighting, especially for young warriors who didn`t have wives and children to see to. I haven`t tried tracking all of their movements, but that some stayed around Ford B or in the South isn`to be straight out rejected. Geir, disillusioned with football (soccer, for you yanks)...
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 4, 2019 3:50:56 GMT -6
Hi Geir. Obviously not every Cheyenne went north and every Sioux went south, but many Cheyenne accounts relate to soldiers attacking the village from the north. The Sioux relate to the soldiers not getting close to the river because a lot of them arrived after beating Reno and by then the soldiers were on the high ground.
Look again at the JSIT account, Wolftooth does not mention anything about Custer leaving troopers on Calhoun hill or battle ridge, he states that they all moved north and the Indians split into two groups and followed them. The scene we see now with what the Sioux say and the body positions, could easily come from companies moving back south after Custer found ford D a death trap. Then the returning companies simply ran into a Sioux road block.
All of this has been worked on for years on the blue board, we have two guys on the ground and another few working through tons of accounts.
I cannot elaborate more because we have a flight to catch, going to warmer climbs for a week.
BTW; Utd need to sign a few front men, not a shot on target in 90 minutes is awful!
Yan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 4, 2019 6:42:40 GMT -6
The Cheyennes came from:
Custer Creek East moving west in MTC Crossing MTC with Sioux Crossing at the mouth of Deep Ravine Crossing at the Ford Ds
Regards
AZ Ranger
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