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Post by Jas. Watson on Aug 19, 2018 14:35:39 GMT -6
After the Hostiles left and Reno's men could move about, they watered what horses left, buried their dead and as Windolph said; "Reno ordered the whole camp to move as close to the river as possible" [to get away from the stench].
My question is just where? They were still up on the hill, not down by the river. I know there is a spot where a bunch of stuff was burned, but assume that's not where they camped.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 20, 2018 12:15:37 GMT -6
They moved west of the original entrenchments closer to the river. Prevailing westerly winds being what they were, it probably helped. The burn pile was to the southwest of the entrenchments and not fired up until later.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by shan on Aug 25, 2018 5:38:57 GMT -6
I wonder if anyone can help me by breaking down the events in the valley into helpful segments. Now I know this is a big ask, but over the years I've read so many differing opinions as to duration and timings, I'm now totally confused.
So, what I'd like to know is this. One, if there is a consensus as to how far down the valley Reno's command rode before they halted, and if possible how long this would have taken.
Two, how long were they on the skirmish line before falling back to the wood. Three, how far would the village have been from the skirmish line, and how many Indians would have been to their front when they first formed it?
Fourthly, how long were they in the timber, and do we have a guesstimate as to how long it took them to flee to the river and then cross. Now if we had a ball park figure as you say in America, then it might help me place where Custer himself was at any given time.
Whoops, sorry, I forgot, there are a couple of other things. How far out in front of the command were the Arikaree scouts, and where would Reno's command have been when they began to drive the stolen ponies away?
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 25, 2018 13:23:29 GMT -6
Shan, do you have any of the Freddy Wagner books?
His book 'Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn' gives a good description of the valley fight, along with maps.
Ian.
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Post by montrose on Aug 27, 2018 17:08:12 GMT -6
Hello Shan, been a few years.
Wagner breaks this out in detail in Strategy of the LBH. This includes spreadsheets where the different elements of the command were at specific times.
Also, COL MacLean has a book focused on M Company that is the best book on the valley fight I have ever read.
Overview: Reno battalion of 3 companies were regiment advance guard. They started a traditional advance guard advance with a reserve, but were forced to commit the reserve to extend their line. The force was too small to cover the avenue of approach between the river and foothills. As a tactical compromise, Reno covered his right flank by tying in with the river. He committed his reserve to extend to his left, and sent 2 messengers to main body that automatically trigger main body support to his left.
As he kept advancing Indians saw his weakness on the west and some 500-900 Indians mounted up and swept past his open flank. The main body should have countered this, but they did not show. Reno was forced to stop, not because of a handful of dismounts in Otter Creek dry bed, but because the enemy had swung around his flank and cut him off from Ford A. They were not attacking his flank, they were behind him, attacking his rear.
Reno swung his line facing west, but there was no threat there, Indians were to his south. The breakout or whatever term you call it was to get out of there before Indians consolidated the south area of operations. Note how many US accounts state they had Indians on their LEFT during the breakout. That means they were surrounded. Companies A and M participated in the breakout, G company was mostly left behind, for a variety of reasons split between an incoherent task force HQ element, and very poor company leadership and decisions.
Analysis. MAJ Reno was too aggressive. He went too far down the valley. He committed his reserve, meaning he knew he had insufficient force to fight in the valley. He sent 2 messengers on his own, plus the 2 regimental LNOs Cooke and Keough. He assumed LTC Custer was a competent officer, and had the main body where it should have been to support a regimental attack. He should have skirmished back towards Ford A until he had a response from the main body. In fact he should have recrossed Ford A and set up a hasty defense until main body and regiment commander took over, as they were bound by doctrine and tactics to do.
I will address Indian auxiliary force later. In case your wondering I rate the LT assigned to scouts as an equal to Derudio: grossly incompetent.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by montrose on Aug 27, 2018 17:22:46 GMT -6
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtG5KnKLH1oFoley is Reno, 1st platoon is Reno task force. d**e is Custer, of course. Main body did not support advance guard. Main body became over cautious, would not attack, delayed, hesitated. LTC Custer was a moral coward at LBH. He put his subordinates in harms way, and kept avoiding contact. He kept 5 companies of the main body out of any offensive action, wondering around the prairie out of attack range of the village at all times. The main body never conducted a single offensive action. They never crossed the river which is the only proof they intended to attack. This is not the first time a brave individual soldier lacked decisional courage. The guts to make a decision and pitch in. No decision is a decision. The reckless leader of 12 years ago didn't show up on 25 Jun 76. Odd observation. Custer spent Sep 75 to Apr 76 working a pollical conspiracy to defame the Grant administration, and work some financial issues like a future Paul Manafort. This period away from troops meant his physical fitness declined and his ability to work with his companies was zero. Fatigue has a major impact on decision making. It puts you in a fog, Germans have a unique term for this, translates roughly as cloud cuckoo land.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 28, 2018 4:50:24 GMT -6
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Post by shan on Aug 29, 2018 5:55:26 GMT -6
hello Yan,
sorry for the delay in replying, yes, I had intend to get both those books, but circumstances prohibit me buying any more books, in fact I'm thinking of selling off most my collection of books to do with the battle, plus some of my ledger arts book. Don't worry, this isn't a sob story, its just that I've reached an age where I know that I'll never dip into these books again, or else I've out grown them. In fact I've been going through my collection of books on ledger art ~ which is my passion ~ and I came to the realisation that after I'd bought them and spent a bit of time with them ~ and this could be twenty or more years ago, I've never even opened some of them since, and that's the real sob story.
Hope you are well and enjoyed the heat wave. Shan
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Post by shan on Aug 29, 2018 6:19:14 GMT -6
hello Montrose,
well ~ I've never really been away, its just that I have less to say I guess. I am now a confirmed lurker on both boards, which I know will annoy some people, and I raised this same question on the other board which brought a flurry of answers, plus your own kind answer.
I suppose what I wanted to get settled in my head was two things, no wait ~ maybe three things. One, the duration of that escapade, two, the activities of the scouts and their whereabouts whilst down in the valley, and three, the whereabouts of Custer, both at the beginning of Reno's movement down the valley, and then when he finally arrived out on the bluffs.
Between you all, you have answered my first question, and I went back to the Arikaree narrative to check for myself, and whilst I love that book and have read it numerous times, its very hard to place most of them in the landscape.
With regards to Custer's whereabouts during all this, I've found some of the answers both surprising and unsatisfactory. I think we can take it that he was seen by a number of people up on the bluffs, and logic tells us that he would have sought out several locations where he could see what was going on, and Fred has done some good work on that.. But beyond that, the general consensous was that he then turned down into Cedar Coulee and rode off into both a mystery and history. But, and its a big but, there seems to be a belief now in Thompson's reported sightings of Custer scouting in the general area of Bouyers Bluffs on his own, whilst his troops kept themselves out of the wait either behind Bouyers bluffs, or Luce ridge, I repeat, behind.
Now I first read Thompson's story, in the battlefield archive in 2001, and I found most of it hard to swallow then, and I still do. Oh I have little doubt that his account of his falling behind because his horse gave out is probably true, but as for the rest, well, maybe I'm wrong and need to re-think the whole thing, but the phrase that comes to mind is fairy story.
I'd love to know what you, and indeed anyone else on this board think about Thompson,
best wishes Shan
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Post by fred on Aug 29, 2018 8:04:31 GMT -6
Shan, do you have any of the Freddy Wagner books? His book 'Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn' gives a good description of the valley fight, along with maps. Ian. Ian, I think you mean The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.By the way, do I owe you a response on an email? I cleaned out a lot of files because I inadvertently downloaded a virus off Adobe Reader and had Apple install a malware program. In doing so I messed up somewhat and deleted a whole slew of emails. I have this jingle in the back of my mind that you had asked me for something and I never responded. Or am I simply going crazy? Hope you are well. I heard you had a serious heat wave there... Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 29, 2018 8:49:17 GMT -6
Whoops, sorry about that Fred, yes I meant that book.
It has been one hell of a summer, great for my tomato and strawberry plants.
Yes I did send you an email about Reno's HQ, I have posted it below.
Now this was posted a while ago by another member. I have never seen another version of Reno's BHQ.
Reno's Headquarters Detachment
Major Reno (Battalion Commander)
Lieutenant Hodgson (Battalion Adjutant)
Dr DeWolf (Surgeon)
Dr Porter (Surgeon)
Corporal Mason (Co E)
Trumpeter Penwell (Co K)
Pvt Davern (Co F) Reno's orderly
Pvt McIlhargery (Co I) Reno's striker
Pvt Mitchell (Co I) Reno's cook
Pvt Hackett (Co G) Lt Wallace's orderly
Pvt Trumble (Co B) Lt Hodgson's orderly
Pvt Abbotts (Co E) Dr DeWolf's hospital attendant
Pvt Robinson (Co E) Dr Porter's hospital attendant
Total - 13
What I needed clearing up is the inclusion of Pvt Hackett who was not with Lt. Wallace and Corp Penwell who is down as leader of the EMs in the group.
Nice to hear from you again Fred and I hope that everything is well on your end.
Best Regards
Ian
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dale
New Member
Veteran
Posts: 6
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Post by dale on Sept 2, 2018 18:22:29 GMT -6
I have a great picture of that battle here! Sorry they put it wrong side up  |
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