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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 13, 2019 8:27:33 GMT -5
William I think they rode toward the point of the Garryowen Loop and fixed the right side G while the rest pivoted. That appears to be what the Morris map shows.  Regards Steve |
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Post by noggy on Dec 13, 2019 9:34:11 GMT -5
There was an excellent book on M Company that goes deep into sources on the valley fight. I don't have access to it right now, it went into storage when I went into the hospital. Supporting data is dozens of participant accounts and archeology and geology data. I do not want to repeat arguments we went into at length 5 years ago. Montrose, would that be the Maclean book? I considered buying it, but with shipping it was pretty steep (?) prized. All the best, Geir |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 13, 2019 12:44:46 GMT -5
French L. MacLean Custer's Best. There is another for Company A, which hasn't come to mind. At the risk of upsetting, the RCoI testimony was fraught with human frailty and confusion. It's simple purpose was to discredit the written account of Frederick Whittaker and his timing analysis of events. Officer's were not going to put themselves in poor light, and nor their regiment although their men came in for criticism - rightly or wrongly. There was a watershed when the last of the participants passed away and that fell across the work done by Marquis and that later by Kuhlman. Brininstool bridged the two. My interest is what the students and researchers produce and the marked differences with stuff since the 1940's to the point that modern history has little resemblance or is confusing. I find it fascinating studying the historians and this is history. Think of the ancient scholars. That said, the valley skirmish line......... No 1 problem for me. Reno riding into a cloud of dust. He did not see a trench or ditch ahead before he halted to dismount. Just accept this to avoid the argument. He halted for other reasons. When he did halt, A detail of Company M, skirmisshed the timber as the three companies dismounted, and the horses were led under cover. Straight forward. The companies faced towards the village. At some pointin time the line then faced west towards the foothills. I quote pvt. morris - ' One troop was formed as skirmishers facing down the bottom [towards the village]; M Troop was deployed facing the benchland [to the west]. On the left of M Troop and about 20 yards away was a mound, behind which was Bloody Knife and about 15 Ree scouts, Charley Reynolds, Isaiah Indian Interpreter from Fort Rice, the two doctors and others. We [M Troop] advanced towards the bench land [to the west]. The Indians came down the bottom from our right and soon the bench land was black with Indians. Command was given by Captain French to fire at will, and we proceeded forward towards the bench land.' Morris places only one troop facing down the valley where A and G were present. This raises the question of how long G Company were in the valley. No problem, we know that they pulled into the timber leaving A and M behind. Now, how did Company M deploy? Long considered by me, i'll give my version. The early maps were correct showing the battalion advance down the middle of the valley, direct line from ford A to the western tip of the Garryowen loop timber. As they arrived there, Company M were in front of the timber, halted, dismounted and sent 10 men to skirmish the timber as the three companies halted. Ryan returned to advise Reno the timber was clear of Indians and the three companies mounted horse holders took their charges under cover. That lef M dismounted facing the timber. A and G advanced towards the village and began firing. M then moved across the rear of the line to the left flank and faced off towards the hostiles on the bench. Gerrard was an idiot who hadn't a clue what he was seeing and the officers were reticent about a chaotic fight, heavy losses in panic, civilian deaths and the military's worst ever blunder. There's ya skirmish line. Post battle, the CBHMA land was camping area for the expedition and the 1877 mission to recover officer remains camped there as well. Jason Pitsch found military cartridges in fields west of Kortlander's Garryowen. That's my opinion of the fight. It is firm and offered so that you know what I think. I have been quite reasonable with it. Things fell apart when a company was taken to check terrain that a squad already had. On the other side of the river, a number of Ree scouts were at the samr time, raiding the Sioux pony herda. I do not believe or accept that Sioux were on the east bank then. They went there chasing after the Ree pony stealers. A majority of Pitsch's finds were on land which was east of the river in 1876 on a loop which oxbowed in the 1960's. That was where the Ree scouts fought their standoff after following Reno across the river to the east bank.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 13, 2019 13:14:51 GMT -5
There was an excellent book on M Company that goes deep into sources on the valley fight. I don't have access to it right now, it went into storage when I went into the hospital. Supporting data is dozens of participant accounts and archeology and geology data. I do not want to repeat arguments we went into at length 5 years ago. Montrose, would that be the Maclean book? I considered buying it, but with shipping it was pretty steep (?) prized. All the best, Geir |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 13, 2019 13:39:38 GMT -5
I found it........ yey. From the Valley to the Bluffs: Company A and the Battle of the Little Big Horn 1876 by James Trump link Haven't reas it and managed to completely forget about it until now as the fruit of mental overload. Anecdote. We (the people) are able to manage several tasks concurrently.... think juggling or drinking tea watching TV and opening email etc whilst nibbling biscuits and becoming aware of movement outside the window. Humans are able to cope with between six and nine concurrent strands of activity including memory and calculation, after that we become overloaded. This is the females good at multi-tasking thing which, as far as I'm concerned is simply a way to screw up more things at the same time since we learn by mistakes and error. I came across the book in such circumstances and simply didn't add it to my todo list. I then proptly forgot it and remembered it now, months later in thinking about Company M because it was in researching them that Trump's book came to light. Funny old World. It's a cheap E-book so I may indulge. Be well. From the Valley to the Bluffs: Company A and the Battle of the Little Big Horn 1876 by James Trump Abe Books - The Seventh United States Cavalry under Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer was composed of twelve companies at the Battle of the Little Big Horn River on June 25 1876 Custer s plan of attack required that he divide his regiment by splitting the companies into three separate battalions These battalions would be commanded by Major Marcus Reno A G M Captain Fredrick Benteen D H K and Custer C E F I L Company B under Captain Thomas McDougall was detailed to guard the pack train Reno s orders were to take his battalion and Charge the village and you will be supported by the whole outfit That didn t happen Almost everyone has heard of Custer s Last Stand in one form or another but are surprised to learn that only five companies of the regiment were actually defeated by the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors The surviving companies of Reno s and Benteen s Battalions plus Company B and the pack train not only survived a three day siege but also had a very compelling story to tell This then is the story of one of those surviving companies Company A commanded by Captain Myles Moylan More than that it is the personal story of the men in that company and their experiences down in the valley and up on the bluffs along the Little Big Horn River on June 25 26 and 27 1876.  |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 13, 2019 14:19:02 GMT -5
I'm bored, perhaps you can tell and going to pop up a strand of thought about Lima Bravo's valley rally which may not be everyone's scotch and cider on the rocks but hell....... snakes do bite. During the retreat to Reno Hill several troopers were cut down climbing the bluffs by a volley of hostile fire. One was hit in the head spraying brains and skull all over a comrade. It's record and i'll dig it out. First search hit Henry Cody who may have been the unknown entombed at Garryowen in 1926. Anysways, time does interesting things with memory and I focus here on Maj. Reno who, purportedly, was covered in Bloody Knife's brains in doing what ever was being done in the timber. Now, that at best was an unpleasant happenstance and may have unnerved said officer and that view of it has certainly been put forth about the battle. It is not the sort of thing which one is likely to forget, whether pushed to the back of the mind or not. So, rationalise this, from Reno's unpublished memoirs. Quote, '‘At this fight at the ford "Bloody Knife"— the chief of the Indians scouts— was shot dead at my feet.' below, links to online book Reno's account of the battle. BioMassacre |
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Post by montrose on Dec 13, 2019 22:28:40 GMT -5
Yes, the MacLean book. I know it is expensive but one of the best LBH books I own. He cites his sources so you can look at his analysis and draw your own conclusions. I despise books like Philbrick where there is no evidence, the citations do not support the text, and he is borrowing materiel from sources not cited, nor in the bibliography (also known as plagiarism).
I don't know the Trump book. DO you recommend it, Hero?
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Post by herosrest on Dec 14, 2019 4:36:59 GMT -5
There is a preview on Google Books and the Ebook version is less than $5. I have seen the preview and am indifferent although the list of reference material 'seems' extensive. Trump is a military history buff and reenactor and that is the approach and style of writing - private Van Holland and his horse with Custer on the Rosebud. I cannot yey or neigh unless I make the purchase. The preview is well written in novel style. No indications as to whether he drills down at the nuts of things but there is a discussion among his characters of the Elliot killing as Custer abandoning his men so perhaps a leaning towards the cherry brandy. Regards. |
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Post by montrose on Dec 14, 2019 12:01:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the answer , Hero. I may give it a shot, not sure.
The Elliot thing is where LTC Custer had to make a hard call. He made the right decision. This is the reason commanders wear green tabs, they have to make decisions where subordinates die.
LTC Custer and his unit were focused on one isolated village. Data rapidly came in that there were many other villages in that valley, and hundreds of Indians were inbound. The US Army has a long tradition of doing everything possible to not leave anyone behind, due to our long experience in Indian wars, where prisoners were tortured and killed. My opinion is that GAC realized the odds of any survivors was slim, and he risked dozens of deaths trying to chase ghosts. It was a hard decision, but the right decision.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 15, 2019 8:32:04 GMT -5
I agree. There is a 'sense' in which this might have had a bearing on Reno's situation and awareness during his valley fight although discussion drags open a can of worms which wriggle off in all directions. That wasn't first time that Elliot went missing during a mission, during the time in Kansas he was gone 10 days or so but turned up safe and sound. It is in an old period history somewhere that I read through many years back and may have had a bearing on Washita. Elliot by all measure seems to have been a capable and astute leader but developed a morbid hatred over the fates of female captives.
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Post by noggy on Dec 17, 2019 2:42:28 GMT -5
Montrose, would that be the Maclean book? I considered buying it, but with shipping it was pretty steep (?) prized. All the best, Geir 84 euros. That`s a solid price  All the best, Noggy |
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 21, 2019 9:28:48 GMT -5
Noggy, the price is right for the value. I bought it as soon a it was released. I later passed it on to Fred and I think it may have prompted him to do some research for a new book. That along with questions from others. You might ask Fred to pass it along to you.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by fred on Dec 26, 2019 20:11:29 GMT -5
You might ask Fred to pass it along to you. Sorry. Not a chance. The book is too valuable and I use it a lot. Do not mean to be the Christmas grinch, but... nope. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by noggy on Dec 30, 2019 10:48:14 GMT -5
Noggy, the price is right for the value. I bought it as soon a it was released. I later passed it on to Fred and I think it may have prompted him to do some research for a new book. That along with questions from others. You might ask Fred to pass it along to you. Regards, Tom Hi Tom Remember, I`m Norwegian. That means I wade around in oil, free health care, salmon and money (coins only). I have actually ordered it recently as yet another Christmas present to myself. The rest of my family got so much I have taken the stance that I too should be a spoiled little brat Merry Christmas ans happy new year. All the best, Geir |
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