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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 21, 2018 8:46:06 GMT -6
From Science News: [Genevieve] Mielke reviewed 30 written battle accounts taken from Native American fighters and army soldiers in nearby regiments, and found that 14 described instances of Custer’s men killing themselves with revolvers.
Yet data on skeletal injuries of 31 of Custer’s soldiers indicate only three committed suicide by firing a gun into their head, Mielke reported. In contrast, 22 soldiers had skeletal damage consistent with dismemberment, scalping or other mutilations.
These data were previously published by two teams that excavated and then reburied 7th Cavalry soldiers who died at Little Big Horn. One project took place in the 1980s, the other in the 1990s.
Mielke did not have access to any skeletons of Custer’s men. Article: www.sciencenews.org/article/suicide-custer-little-big-horn-soldiers-may-be-overblown
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Post by benteen on Apr 21, 2018 13:46:00 GMT -6
From Science News: [Genevieve] Mielke reviewed 30 written battle accounts taken from Native American fighters and army soldiers in nearby regiments, and found that 14 described instances of Custer’s men killing themselves with revolvers.
Yet data on skeletal injuries of 31 of Custer’s soldiers indicate only three committed suicide by firing a gun into their head, Mielke reported. In contrast, 22 soldiers had skeletal damage consistent with dismemberment, scalping or other mutilations.
These data were previously published by two teams that excavated and then reburied 7th Cavalry soldiers who died at Little Big Horn. One project took place in the 1980s, the other in the 1990s.
Mielke did not have access to any skeletons of Custer’s men. Article: www.sciencenews.org/article/suicide-custer-little-big-horn-soldiers-may-be-overblownHi Diane, Interesting. But if you do the math 3 out of 31 equates to 18 out of 210. So it would appear that 14 described instance of Custers men killing themselves would be on the money or at least in the ballpark. Be Well Dan PS....Good talking to you again
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Post by noggy on Apr 22, 2018 6:50:14 GMT -6
In "They Died with Custer", Scott (I believe) mentioned that no cases of suicide could be proven. Is there anywhere one could read more about this resent work?
Noggy
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Post by benteen on Apr 22, 2018 14:14:37 GMT -6
In "They Died with Custer", Scott (I believe) mentioned that no cases of suicide could be proven. Is there anywhere one could read more about this resent work? Noggy Noggy, With due respect to Mr Douglas Scott, how could one prove or disprove a suicide from a skull 100 years later. Be Well Dan
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Post by noggy on Apr 22, 2018 14:51:51 GMT -6
In "They Died with Custer", Scott (I believe) mentioned that no cases of suicide could be proven. Is there anywhere one could read more about this resent work? Noggy Noggy, With due respect to Mr Douglas Scott, how could one prove or disprove a suicide from a skull 100 years later. Be Well Dan That is by no means my field of expertise I really don`t know. The same goes for these recent claims from Mielke. I`d imagine the angle of bullet entry and such? Personally I can barely use a pair of compasses. All the best, Noggy
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 23, 2018 5:22:55 GMT -6
I think Scott is stating the obvious that a bullet hole in the skull is consistent with more than one method either self inflicted or not.
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Post by noggy on Apr 23, 2018 12:58:02 GMT -6
Wounds like the one where the gun is placed in ones mouth and aimed up is a type I`d guess unlikely to have been inflicted by an enemy.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 23, 2018 14:26:07 GMT -6
interestingly a muzzle placed directly against the temple, skull, or the roof of the mouth will tattoo the bone and fragments. You can tell.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 24, 2018 6:17:16 GMT -6
If Tom Custer shoots the General by placing the muzzle to his head then it would not be suicide. If a soldier puts the muzzle to his heart and pulls the trigger that would be suicide but hard to determine. An Indian riding by a body and shooting into it adds to the variety of wounds that would be hard to determine how it was done over 100 years later. I agree with Tom on bone fragments but even a dead soldier shot in the head would have bone fragments. A wound with the heart pumping is different from shooting something dead but we lost the ability to make that determination in most cases.
If an Indian was willing to shove a stick down the throat of a dying soldier why not a revolver?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by battledetective on May 1, 2018 15:46:59 GMT -6
I think a hole in the temple, on the same side as the dominant arm, and consistent with point-blank fire from a military issued revolver would be a strong indication of suicide. But I don't know if after so long time it's still possible to assess weapon and distance from the analysis of the wound. Moreover, many soldiers may have been finished by the Indians with shots at close distance, using captured revolvers among other weapons. But the confusion would arise only if the shots had been fired on the temple of the dominant arm side or in the mouth. Historians think that Custer didn't commit suicide because the shot was on the left temple and apparently didn't cause bleeding, so they concluded it must have been fired postmortem. I don't doubt that several men in Custer command committed suicide, because 'saving the last bullet for oneself' was, I think, a known option in Indian warfare, where the perspective of being captured and tortured were real. An Indian report (I read it long ago so I don't remember the source) mentioned a trooper on a fast horse that had almost succeeded to escape the battlefield, and right when the warriors were going to abandon the pursuit he shot himself.
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Post by herosrest on May 17, 2018 16:55:21 GMT -6
From 'A WARRIOR WHO FOUGHT CUSTER' p271-2 - ROVINGS AFTER THE VICTORY
I was stationed as a wolf to keep lookout from a hill near our camp. As I sat there, an Indian young man rode up to me. He asked me, in Sioux language, "Who are you?" I said, "I am a Cheyenne." He got down from his horse. He had tobacco and a pipe, and we had a smoke together. He told me he belonged to the Waist and Skirt people, but I already could see that, by his earrings. All of the Waist and Skirt men wore elk teeth hanging from their ears. After we had smoked and visited a while, he said:
"I think the big chief of the soldiers we killed was named Long Hair. One of my people killed him. He has known Long Hair many years, and he is sure this was him. He could tell him by the long and wavy yellow hair."
This was the first time I ever had heard of any such person as Long Hair. The news was interesting to me at first, but after I had thought a few moments about it the story seemed not very important. I recalled myself having seen at least three soldiers having long and light-colored hair. One of these I had shot after he was dead. Just after the end of the fighting I saw this long-haired soldier lying there without any appearance of wounds on him. So I put the muzzle of my rifle against the side of his head and sent a bullet through it. This man's clothing was gone when I first saw him. I had not any thought about whether or not he was a chief.
A great council was held at the Greasy Grass camp that night. Chiefs of all of the tribes were there. It was out of doors, in the midst of the camp circles. I believe it was at the Ogallala camp, but I am not sure. At this council I heard an Uncpapa Sioux war chief say: "Long Hair was big chief of the soldiers. I saw him there, and I killed him. I know it was him. I could not mistake the long and wavy yellow hair*. I did not hear anyone else during that time make claims of knowing who was the soldier big chief.
* In fact, his wife and others to whom he was well known assert that General Custer was not wearing his hair...... TBM
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Post by crzhrs on May 17, 2018 17:14:47 GMT -6
It wouldn't be a surprise that after the battle some Cheyenne recognized Custer and his brother Tom. Many Cheyenne got to know or were familiar with the Custers from the Washita Battle and afterwards on the reservation. There are numerous accounts of Cheyenne regarding their relationship with the Custers on the reservation and possible "intimacies" between them and Cheyenne Women.
Remember, Custer approached the far end (north) of the village where the Cheyenne were camped along with Crazy Horse's Oglalas. They may have had more to do with the demise of the 7th along with CH than the rest of the camp. Once the fight was over many Cheyenne roamed over the field and more than likely a number of them recognized GAC & TC resulting in GAC being not "quite" so disfigured as TC who could only be recognized by his tattoos. Many Cheyenne gave TC the "extra treatment" possibly because of his abuse of Cheyenne women.
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thegraylensman
New Member
Given a do-over, how could the 7th have won the battle of the LittleBighorn?
Posts: 3
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Post by thegraylensman on Jul 15, 2018 19:34:11 GMT -6
That never crossed my mind. Good point.
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