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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 18, 2018 9:07:06 GMT -6
How many NAs do you assume were at the LBH? They were many enough to beat the 7th when presented to them piece by piece, for sure. That`s what happened after all. But with the regiment united? Do you believe the outcome would have been the same if a 12 company charge was made? I don`t. There would have been eight companies attacking into the valley with the same outcome. Say 400 troopers with Custer and as we are learning from Montrose, broadly unfit for purpose. Benteen and the packs would have been cut off in the way in which Custer's advance with the five companies was. I had not realied how poorly trained the troops were and with weapons that jammed and unable to ride worn out horsesand shooting off all the carried ammo in 10 minutes. Pessamistic maybe Custer obviously wasn't. I disagree HR. Reno could do exactly as he did but Custer would move around Reno's left following the same plan he was attempting in the rougher terrain. He would prevent the flanking of Reno by the Indians. That would give Benteen, Pack Train, and rear guard only one place to go. Noggy --- I don't know about the outcome but having all 12 companies in the valley with overlapping fields of fire would be a good thing. The small groups of troopers are easier to out number and overrun. So Custer with 12 companies may at the high end have a 4 to 1 Indian to soldier but 2 companies on the Custer Battlefield fighting without support could have 10 to 1 odds against them. With a single shot carbine that would be hard to defend against 10 to 1 odds. As far as the numbers of Indians anything over 1,800 would be enough and it would not surprise me to have 2,400 warriors or more. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 18, 2018 9:59:11 GMT -6
There would have been eight companies attacking into the valley with the same outcome. Say 400 troopers with Custer and as we are learning from Montrose, broadly unfit for purpose. Benteen and the packs would have been cut off in the way in which Custer's advance with the five companies was. I had not realied how poorly trained the troops were and with weapons that jammed and unable to ride worn out horsesand shooting off all the carried ammo in 10 minutes. Pessamistic maybe Custer obviously wasn't. I disagree HR. Reno could do exactly as he did but Custer would move around Reno's left following the same plan he was attempting in the rougher terrain. He would prevent the flanking of Reno by the Indians. That would give Benteen, Pack Train, and rear guard only one place to go. Noggy --- I don't about the outcome but having all 12 companies in the valley with overlapping fields of fire would be a good thing. The small groups of troopers are easier to out number and overrun. So Custer with 12 companies may at the high end have a 4 to 1 Indian to soldier but 2 companies on the Custer Battlefield fighting without support could have 10 to 1 odds against them. With a single shot carbine that would be hard to defend against 10 to 1 odds. As far as the numbers of Indians anything over 1,800 would be enough and it would not surprise me to have 2,400 warriors or more. Regards AZ Ranger You should accept that Reno would have been the advance, or deployed to left of the line in a five or eight company line. That is because if eight companie deploy into the valley, the tactics from get go are those of a regimental attack. Reno either sent into the village, which Custer may or may not have observed from the bluffs; or sent to the left flank and western hills. link 1link 2If Reno went west, he cuts off the village from its horses. If he hits the village the fighters stand and fight or they............ run. Game over with three, five or eght companies.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 18, 2018 10:39:58 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2018 8:47:25 GMT -6
I disagree HR. Reno could do exactly as he did but Custer would move around Reno's left following the same plan he was attempting in the rougher terrain. He would prevent the flanking of Reno by the Indians. That would give Benteen, Pack Train, and rear guard only one place to go. Noggy --- I don't about the outcome but having all 12 companies in the valley with overlapping fields of fire would be a good thing. The small groups of troopers are easier to out number and overrun. So Custer with 12 companies may at the high end have a 4 to 1 Indian to soldier but 2 companies on the Custer Battlefield fighting without support could have 10 to 1 odds against them. With a single shot carbine that would be hard to defend against 10 to 1 odds. As far as the numbers of Indians anything over 1,800 would be enough and it would not surprise me to have 2,400 warriors or more. Regards AZ Ranger You should accept that Reno would have been the advance, or deployed to left of the line in a five or eight company line. That is because if eight companie deploy into the valley, the tactics from get go are those of a regimental attack. Reno either sent into the village, which Custer may or may not have observed from the bluffs; or sent to the left flank and western hills. link 1link 2If Reno went west, he cuts off the village from its horses. If he hits the village the fighters stand and fight or they............ run. Game over with three, five or eght companies. I think that Reno acted as an advance guard and quickly developed the Indians moving in his direction. Custer chose to move to the right of Reno keeping Reno uninformed of what he was doing. If he had known Custer needed time to get into place that could change Reno's available choices of what to do. Giving up time allows the Indians to get ready for the fight and there were lots of Indians that got ready.
I believe the Cheyenne accounts that they had guards across the river. If they were taken by surprise then what would have happened if they had time to prepare?
I don't think that Reno could possibly win with CQB and that it ends quickly so charging into the village is not a good available choice. My personal choice is for Reno to remain mounted and when the Indians come out remain in the valley but move up the valley drawing the Indians further from the Big Village. The carbines advantage is distance between soldier and Indian but unless hits are made the Indians would believe it a good medicine day and their shirts are working.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 19, 2018 10:04:27 GMT -6
You should accept that Reno would have been the advance, or deployed to left of the line in a five or eight company line. That is because if eight companie deploy into the valley, the tactics from get go are those of a regimental attack. Reno either sent into the village, which Custer may or may not have observed from the bluffs; or sent to the left flank and western hills. link 1link 2If Reno went west, he cuts off the village from its horses. If he hits the village the fighters stand and fight or they............ run. Game over with three, five or eght companies. I think that Reno acted as an advance guard and quickly developed the Indians moving in his direction. Custer chose to move to the right of Reno keeping Reno uninformed of what he was doing. If he had known Custer needed time to get into place that could change Reno's available choices of what to do. Giving up time allows the Indians to get ready for the fight and there were lots of Indians that got ready.
I believe the Cheyenne accounts that they had guards across the river. If they were taken by surprise then what would have happened if they had time to prepare?
I don't think that Reno could not possibly win with CQB and that it ends quickly so charging into the village is not a good available choice. My personal choice is for Reno to remain mounted and when the Indians come out remain in the valley but move up the valley drawing the Indians further from the Big Village. The carbines advantage is distance between soldier and Indian but unless hits are made the Indians would believe it a good medicine day and their shirts are working.
Regards
AZ Ranger
I can only reiterate that had the CO decided to commit all his available companies to advance the Little Bighorn valley then Reno would have been directly under Custer's command and without the latitude to disobey his orders that presented once he felt overwhelmed. Reno would have been either the advance in attacking the village or deployed to the left, the west of the valley. He would not have been operating independently and Yates and Keogh would have been fighting their battalions at his side or in reserve. The point of eight companies attacking the village is the central criticism that that is not what was done. Concentration of force. I digress. Custer either went and had his look at the village from the bluffs, 'G' on Benteen's map, or he didn't but at some relative point, he knew that the village was not running away. It was to large and at that theoretical point - he would do as he actually did. Hurry up Benteen and the pack train and attack with all strength. The eight companies would have been fighting together with the equivalent of five more on their way. Benteen reached Ford A as Reno pulled out of the valley. Custer would not have withdrawn. Reno would not have had the latitude to do what he actuslly did. You should never forget that Benteen arrived at Ford A to see Reno in the valley and charging out of it. It's an old discussion but entirely relative and particularly so because by most modern estimates, Benteen delayed for a half hour or more before reaching Ford A. Eight companies would have been fighting in the valley under Custer's leadership and the interesting issue is whether the Benteen battalion, pack train and rear guard company would have been able to enter the valley and join the attack.
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Post by noggy on Mar 19, 2018 14:35:51 GMT -6
The Sioux and Cheyenne were at a disadvantage in being dismounted in the camp and as you say, bound to stand and cover an exodus by the families. Custer was certainly aware of the horse as centre of gravity in ordering scouts to raid the herds. Eight company attack would deploy Reno as advance or left of the line. There's plenty to play with and there would have been chaos, as there was, in the camp to begin with. Once the fighters were mounted it was inevitable that their numbers and firepower would begin to tip the balance of power and control. According to testimony, it was not possible to ride into the camp across the ditch obstacle. One can only speculate, but my five cents (I don`t have any cents, I Kroner, even Euros and British Pounds, I`ll give those!) are: All this depends on a couple of things. How many warriors were there? I`ll buy just about everything between 1 000 and 2 000. How about you? Then we add civilians. 7-8 K, perhaps? An ("a", rather ?) 8 company charge that doesn`t halt like Reno did will not give the warriors time to gather in the vicinity of the village watching troopers fire from idiotic ranges, and organize an counter attack. The ditch was not impassable or the Great Wall, even though a gallop would have lost it`s pace here. Not sure how long it stretched, but I`m guessing it could have been ridden around too without loosing all shock and awe? As for tipping the balance... I don`t think so, personally. I do not believe the warriors on open ground could have handled, as in defeat, 400-500 soldiers the same way they could do when basically annihilating small separated units in Custer`s sector or outflanking Reno`s too small unit. The warriors could, if Custer gave enough of them time to escort the civilians away, at best have fought him to a stand-off, is my guess. And that would be a defeat; they knew other soldiers were in the field and would need to move on, with their families having no safe areas they could go to without them. Their village with food supplies, tipis and so on would have been lost since they could not pack this down in the middle of a fight. Benteen would be reaching the battle too, meaning 12 companies would be in the valley and possibly giving the Indians the impression larger forces were already arriving. Civilians would be spread running about on the Plains. Much of the horse herd possibly run off or killed. Sitting Bull`s village would have dispersed, and the deathblow given to any ideas of continued resistance in the long run. That`s in very short what I think would have happen. All the best, Noggy
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Post by noggy on Mar 19, 2018 14:42:05 GMT -6
Noggy --- I don't about the outcome but having all 12 companies in the valley with overlapping fields of fire would be a good thing. The small groups of troopers are easier to out number and overrun. So Custer with 12 companies may at the high end have a 4 to 1 Indian to soldier but 2 companies on the Custer Battlefield fighting without support could have 10 to 1 odds against them. With a single shot carbine that would be hard to defend against 10 to 1 odds. As far as the numbers of Indians anything over 1,800 would be enough and it would not surprise me to have 2,400 warriors or more. Regards AZ Ranger I`d like to say that my previous post on 17th March was written without me remembering it, been having a rather nasty fever haha. Yes, we seem to agree here and I see now that I just now in my last post made some of your points. Indians could fight large and larger US Army forces to a stand still. Like Rosebud. But when the camp and their families is within striking distance that makes such a "victory" close to worthless. All the best, Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Mar 20, 2018 13:52:03 GMT -6
The Sioux and Cheyenne were at a disadvantage in being dismounted in the camp and as you say, bound to stand and cover an exodus by the families. Custer was certainly aware of the horse as centre of gravity in ordering scouts to raid the herds. Eight company attack would deploy Reno as advance or left of the line. There's plenty to play with and there would have been chaos, as there was, in the camp to begin with. Once the fighters were mounted it was inevitable that their numbers and firepower would begin to tip the balance of power and control. According to testimony, it was not possible to ride into the camp across the ditch obstacle. One can only speculate, but my five cents (I don`t have any cents, I Kroner, even Euros and British Pounds, I`ll give those!) are: All this depends on a couple of things. How many warriors were there? I`ll buy just about everything between 1 000 and 2 000. How about you? Then we add civilians. 7-8 K, perhaps? An ("a", rather ?) 8 company charge that doesn`t halt like Reno did will not give the warriors time to gather in the vicinity of the village watching troopers fire from idiotic ranges, and organize an counter attack. The ditch was not impassable or the Great Wall, even though a gallop would have lost it`s pace here. Not sure how long it stretched, but I`m guessing it could have been ridden around too without loosing all shock and awe? As for tipping the balance... I don`t think so, personally. I do not believe the warriors on open ground could have handled, as in defeat, 400-500 soldiers the same way they could do when basically annihilating small separated units in Custer`s sector or outflanking Reno`s too small unit. The warriors could, if Custer gave enough of them time to escort the civilians away, at best have fought him to a stand-off, is my guess. And that would be a defeat; they knew other soldiers were in the field and would need to move on, with their families having no safe areas they could go to without them. Their village with food supplies, tipis and so on would have been lost since they could not pack this down in the middle of a fight. Benteen would be reaching the battle too, meaning 12 companies would be in the valley and possibly giving the Indians the impression larger forces were already arriving. Civilians would be spread running about on the Plains. Much of the horse herd possibly run off or killed. Sitting Bull`s village would have dispersed, and the deathblow given to any ideas of continued resistance in the long run. That`s in very short what I think would have happen. All the best, Noggy If the Sioux had been able to mount, ala Reno's tactics then even with an aggressive Custer the companies are holed up and initiative lost. I accept your points and have no criticism but.... 2,000 Indians is 3 to 1 on the 7th Cavalry albeit with exactly the same issues of competence and morale attributed to the troopers. Once the Sioux were mounted and mobile and despite being on top of their camp, so were the soldiers and the prophesy was there for the fulfilling. Those guys spanked Crook's larger force.
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Post by noggy on Mar 20, 2018 14:11:13 GMT -6
One can only speculate, but my five cents (I don`t have any cents, I Kroner, even Euros and British Pounds, I`ll give those!) are: All this depends on a couple of things. How many warriors were there? I`ll buy just about everything between 1 000 and 2 000. How about you? Then we add civilians. 7-8 K, perhaps? An ("a", rather ?) 8 company charge that doesn`t halt like Reno did will not give the warriors time to gather in the vicinity of the village watching troopers fire from idiotic ranges, and organize an counter attack. The ditch was not impassable or the Great Wall, even though a gallop would have lost it`s pace here. Not sure how long it stretched, but I`m guessing it could have been ridden around too without loosing all shock and awe? As for tipping the balance... I don`t think so, personally. I do not believe the warriors on open ground could have handled, as in defeat, 400-500 soldiers the same way they could do when basically annihilating small separated units in Custer`s sector or outflanking Reno`s too small unit. The warriors could, if Custer gave enough of them time to escort the civilians away, at best have fought him to a stand-off, is my guess. And that would be a defeat; they knew other soldiers were in the field and would need to move on, with their families having no safe areas they could go to without them. Their village with food supplies, tipis and so on would have been lost since they could not pack this down in the middle of a fight. Benteen would be reaching the battle too, meaning 12 companies would be in the valley and possibly giving the Indians the impression larger forces were already arriving. Civilians would be spread running about on the Plains. Much of the horse herd possibly run off or killed. Sitting Bull`s village would have dispersed, and the deathblow given to any ideas of continued resistance in the long run. That`s in very short what I think would have happen. All the best, Noggy If the Sioux had been able to mount, ala Reno's tactics then even with an aggressive Custer the companies are holed up and initiative lost. I accept your points and have no criticism but.... 2,000 Indians is 3 to 1 on the 7th Cavalry albeit with exactly the same issues of competence and morale attributed to the troopers. Once the Sioux were mounted and mobile and despite being on top of their camp, so were the soldiers and the prophesy was there for the fulfilling. Those guys spanked Crook's larger force. Yes, they did stop Crook. Far away from their village and families. This would have been at their front door, and like I said would have been a factor in the fighting since the warriors would be forced to both protect them and fight the soldeirs, unlike at Rosebud.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 28, 2018 16:57:55 GMT -6
I understand the point and its impact upon the Sioux fighting men gathering around Sitting Bulls lodge. The chaos would become panic immediately which was the story of Washita and like that fight the camps further along would be able to react and do it far more quickly than in '68. I do not disagree that the initial shock of eight companies in contact would have been awesome but the lower camps would be able to mount to react. Wooden Leg/Marquis told of this phase.
I tried to understand how it would have played out and the best I can figure is comparison with a stadium emptying after a game and the exodus, the Sioux families, could by the example chosen, flee entirely and very quickly albeit in panic. There's the rub - would the Cheyenne, Brule, Sans Arc, Minnieconjou, fighters - stand.
I don't believe that Custer would have put Reno's battalion in the van using all his strength in the valley. It's a slightly different view to AZR who sees Reno, French, Moylan, etc, doing what they did with support from the rear as Reno expected.
Anysways, if the fighting men ran.... then the tipis fall to the attack and the mission is completed, particularly with Reno's battalion scattering the pony herd but how lucky could Custer get since he had very little idea of the 'depth' of the village. It could have worked but so also might the strike across the river which actually was intended but not undertaken for unknown reasons.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 29, 2018 13:52:56 GMT -6
Link to POWDER RIVER CAMPAIGNS AND SAWYERS EXPEDITION OF 1865 A Documentary Account Comprising Official Reports, Diaries, Contemporary Newspaper Accounts, and Personal Narratives - Edited, with introductions and notes, by LEROY R. HAFEN
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