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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 5, 2018 7:30:44 GMT -6
that the chronometers used in navigation and therefore for keeping the time of the place, 'jumped' without it being realised - rendering all subsequent calculations of location useless
HR
A chronometer is a timepiece that is precise and accurate enough to be used as a portable time standard; it can therefore be used to determine longitude by means of celestial navigation. So if you were correct and that they used it to set their watches how would it not be discovered as stated above 'jumped' without it being realised Nice try but apparently they did not use it to check time pieces or else they would have realized it don't you think?
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 5, 2018 8:33:20 GMT -6
No I don't. Time changes across latitude and the summer soltice brings a further adjustment which wasn't made at the mouth of the Rosebud. Whilst the expeditions watches told the time - no one can possibly know what that time was or work out what it was. 360 /24 is 15. Each 15° of latitude travelled alters the time by one hour. This was understood and the equipment to calculate local time was provided to the Engineers so that they could do that so that they knew were they were. If Terry remained on FAL (Terry) time - we do not know it even after 141 years and never will. Of course, an hour will always be that and endurance data will always be valid but the application of such work to specific time will always be imprecise by significant margins. No one then or now knew or can know the precise time operated by Terry and his command. It really wasn't important in the way it can be today. The Earth's circumferance is 24,901 miles and thus every 1037.5 miles east or west alters the time by one hour at the equator. If you know the time operated at FAL, then the relative time can be calculated for Little Bighorn and Rosebud. What cannot be worked ut is what time Terry and his mens watches told. We need Maguire or Wallace or Stanton or the Military Ordinance covering the practice of time. Being able to calculate the shift of time over travel east and west enables the correct midday and location. Time requires navigation. Navigation requires time. FAL to Rosebud is 270 miles, or so by straight line. Maguire's itinery of the march from FAL - Source Annual report of the Chief of Engineers to the SoW ... v. 2 (1877). 270 / 17.2833333333 = 15.6219864995 = 15 minutes 37.32 seconds. Maguire gave 322.62 miles to Tulloch's Fork on the 24th June.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 5, 2018 13:01:27 GMT -6
Origin of the Sioux buffalo skull taunt -
■ ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■ 27th (June) — The night passed away quietly. Making an early start, we go but a short way when two tepees are seen through the timber and crossing a narrow sandstone point (mentioned in the journal of April 23) we see just in front of us where a very large village was yesterday. The fate of Custer is now more puzzling than ever. We are not left much longer in suspense. Lieutenant Bradley sends in word he has counted one hundred and 96 dead cavalrymen lying on the hills to the left. What the officer saw yesterday looking like buffalo lying down are dead comrades and their horses. Soon two officers reach us from Colonel Reno, and tell us of their part of the action. "Where is Custer?" is asked them. "The last we saw of him he was going down that high bluff toward the lower end of the village. We do not know where he is now." They are told "We have found him."
The Indians evidently left in a great hurry, leaving several lodges standing, and great numbers of buffalo-robes, blankets, tipi-poles, camp utensils, together with great quantities of dried meat and 50/60 ponies. After marching miles we encamp on the Little Big Horn near Colonel Reno's position, which is on a high and steep bluff. The field and its incidents have been described too often to bear repetition here. An official map of it has been made by the chief engineer officer of the department.
The fight taking place here reminds me of a taunt left by one of our Crow scouts not more than 3 or 4 miles up the valley during our scout over this same ground on the 29th of last April. Taking an abandoned hard-bread box and a piece of charcoal he covered it with a lot of drawings, which he said would tell the Sioux that we meant to clear them out, and then sticking a handful of green grass in the cracks, he added, "and this will tell them we are going to do it this summer." It is a little strange, considering the hundreds of miles we have marched over, that, this taunt should have been left almost on the very spot where the one desperate fight of the campaign took place. ■ ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■ E. J. McClernand. Second Lieutenant Second Cavalry, Acting Engineer Officer, District Montana. ■ ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■
Appendix PP, 1877 V2
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Post by fred on Mar 7, 2018 6:20:43 GMT -6
Not that I am aware of and there are too many old stodgy members who refuse to accept anything but the old original rumblings about the battle, i.e., the half-baked attempts at timing, the lone tepee location, no more than ten minutes for Reno's valley fight, Weir Point, etc. Many "diehard" LBH aficionados turn their nose up at fictional work, but personally, I think that is a mistake. There can be great fun in fiction. Best wishes, Fred. Agree and it full of nice people at the same time. The name LBHA is misleading for it is more of a focus on Gen George Custer. There is still plenty of room for variance from the playbook. Heading to Gettysburg in August. There are some marvelous people in the LBHA: Lowell Smith, John Mackintosh, Lee Chambers, Bruce Liddic, David Harrington, and on and on and on. The best thing about the entire conference is the bar, the beer, and the talk-feats. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 7, 2018 7:01:05 GMT -6
No I don't. Time changes across latitude and the summer soltice brings a further adjustment which wasn't made at the mouth of the Rosebud. Whilst the expeditions watches told the time - no one can possibly know what that time was or work out what it was. 360 /24 is 15. Each 15° of latitude travelled alters the time by one hour. This was understood and the equipment to calculate local time was provided to the Engineers so that they could do that so that they knew were they were. If Terry remained on FAL (Terry) time - we do not know it even after 141 years and never will. Of course, an hour will always be that and endurance data will always be valid but the application of such work to specific time will always be imprecise by significant margins. No one then or now knew or can know the precise time operated by Terry and his command. It really wasn't important in the way it can be today. The Earth's circumferance is 24,901 miles and thus every 1037.5 miles east or west alters the time by one hour at the equator. If you know the time operated at FAL, then the relative time can be calculated for Little Bighorn and Rosebud. What cannot be worked ut is what time Terry and his mens watches told. We need Maguire or Wallace or Stanton or the Military Ordinance covering the practice of time. Being able to calculate the shift of time over travel east and west enables the correct midday and location. Time requires navigation. Navigation requires time. FAL to Rosebud is 270 miles, or so by straight line. Maguire's itinery of the march from FAL - Source Annual report of the Chief of Engineers to the SoW ... v. 2 (1877). 270 / 17.2833333333 = 15.6219864995 = 15 minutes 37.32 seconds. Maguire gave 322.62 miles to Tulloch's Fork on the 24th June. HR You can't have it both ways. You stated that it jumped and also that they did not realize it. How was it finally discovered that it jumped and exactly when did that take place. After the battle? Seems to me that at any watch reset by officers that a jump would be discovered so if it occurred after the battle who cares? If it occurred while moving to contact it should have been caught at any watch synchronization I would think. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 7, 2018 19:26:26 GMT -6
No I don't. Time changes across latitude and the summer soltice brings a further adjustment which wasn't made at the mouth of the Rosebud. Whilst the expeditions watches told the time - no one can possibly know what that time was or work out what it was. 360 /24 is 15. Each 15° of latitude travelled alters the time by one hour. This was understood and the equipment to calculate local time was provided to the Engineers so that they could do that so that they knew were they were. If Terry remained on FAL (Terry) time - we do not know it even after 141 years and never will. Of course, an hour will always be that and endurance data will always be valid but the application of such work to specific time will always be imprecise by significant margins. No one then or now knew or can know the precise time operated by Terry and his command. It really wasn't important in the way it can be today. The Earth's circumferance is 24,901 miles and thus every 1037.5 miles east or west alters the time by one hour at the equator. If you know the time operated at FAL, then the relative time can be calculated for Little Bighorn and Rosebud. What cannot be worked ut is what time Terry and his mens watches told. We need Maguire or Wallace or Stanton or the Military Ordinance covering the practice of time. Being able to calculate the shift of time over travel east and west enables the correct midday and location. Time requires navigation. Navigation requires time. FAL to Rosebud is 270 miles, or so by straight line. Maguire's itinery of the march from FAL - Source Annual report of the Chief of Engineers to the SoW ... v. 2 (1877). 270 / 17.2833333333 = 15.6219864995 = 15 minutes 37.32 seconds. Maguire gave 322.62 miles to Tulloch's Fork on the 24th June. HR You can't have it both ways. You stated that it jumped and also that they did not realize it. How was it finally discovered that it jumped and exactly when did that take place. After the battle? Seems to me that at any watch reset by officers that a jump would be discovered so if it occurred after the battle who cares? If it occurred while moving to contact it should have been caught at any watch synchronization I would think. Regards AZ Ranger The situation was not realised because of the weather which prevented astonomical obseervation. I wasn't there and can only rely upon Maguire's record and his prudence. He cited weather for obscuring the difficulty which materialised with his equipment. Anysways, there something up to 15 minutes to play with in respect of the distance travelled. Staton was doing observations with Crook's command and I think that he may have been getting time signals over the wire to Detroit. Mid June he noted time differences with Detroit of 44 minutes. Another aspect of the timing calculation would be if any adjustments were made for the longest day at Solstice and if they were what would they have been. I think that Maguire was peeved in embarrassment over what ever happened with his time work and observations which were a significant aspect of the Corps work at that time. He had been engaged on the Lake Survey and reported for duty at St. Paul, on May 8, 1876, relieving Capt. William Ludlow, Corps of Engineers, of his duties as chief engineer of the department. From there Maguire travelled to Fort Abraham Lincoln, May 10, to join the expedition against the hostile Sioux which got under way after a delay of a few days, due to rain, at 5am May 17, and commenced its march into the land of the turbulent Dakotas. That aside, there was no reliable accurate time available to the Dakota Column during its march after Davis Creek. There was a chronometer used on the Far West and Maguire mentioned I but I have furter to go with this.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2018 6:12:04 GMT -6
HR You can't have it both ways. You stated that it jumped and also that they did not realize it. How was it finally discovered that it jumped and exactly when did that take place. After the battle? Seems to me that at any watch reset by officers that a jump would be discovered so if it occurred after the battle who cares? If it occurred while moving to contact it should have been caught at any watch synchronization I would think. Regards AZ Ranger The situation was not realised because of the weather which prevented astonomical obseervation. I wasn't there and can only rely upon Maguire's record and his prudence. He cited weather for obscuring the difficulty which materialised with his equipment. Anysways, there something up to 15 minutes to play with in respect of the distance travelled. Staton was doing observations with Crook's command and I think that he may have been getting time signals over the wire to Detroit. Mid June he noted time differences with Detroit of 44 minutes. Another aspect of the timing calculation would be if any adjustments were made for the longest day at Solstice and if they were what would they have been. I think that Maguire was peeved in embarrassment over what ever happened with his time work and observations which were a significant aspect of the Corps work at that time. He had been engaged on the Lake Survey and reported for duty at St. Paul, on May 8, 1876, relieving Capt. William Ludlow, Corps of Engineers, of his duties as chief engineer of the department. From there Maguire travelled to Fort Abraham Lincoln, May 10, to join the expedition against the hostile Sioux which got under way after a delay of a few days, due to rain, at 5am May 17, and commenced its march into the land of the turbulent Dakotas. That aside, there was no reliable accurate time available to the Dakota Column during its march after Davis Creek. There was a chronometer used on the Far West and Maguire mentioned I but I have furter to go with this. How did they know it was 5 am? First you would have to know how many watches were with the 7th and the process of synchronization of the watches to infer that time was not accurate. It appears to me that what you are stating is that the assumed to be reliable and accurate method for accurate time wasn't. To assume that current time zones are accurate would be an error. Right? There are only line locations for each time zone where it is accurate. Right? You have to move away from the time zone line and have a one hour error before a correction is done. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter. If watches were synchronized or not a timeline only needs the duration of time for events. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Mar 9, 2018 18:49:56 GMT -6
Yes. You understood me perfectly. Now, in regards time lines, they indicate what was reasonably possible and no more or less. They do not prove anything whatsoever other than pedantry. For example - doubt remains for some students as to whether any soldiers went anywhere near Ford B. Significant figures who actually participated in the battle, were convinced that no one of the five companies went anywhere near the river. Timelines have not solved that issue and never will because they cannot. Equally, the majority of army present on the 27th, 28th and 29th of June 1876; were convinced that Custer's command at least made it to the river, were forced back from it and possibly crossed over before retreating. Timelines will never sort out that matter, will they> I'd love to know if there is some way in which they can reliably guarantee what actually took place. Having run the gamut of time study and its applications tthe all it is good for is developing potential. The bottom line is that time doesn't matter except in the matter of not riding to the sounds of the guns. We can pin your badge to that worthy li'l cause. I agree that their was bad medicine present at LBH and the good stuff t . Nothing to do with timelines though as far as I can fathom. You asked how they knew that it was 5 am? Well, they didn't and it wasn't. Wallace testified to that. He did what others who could, would have. Look at a timepiece. Doesn't mean that they knew the time. If they had, the rest of the planet would not be arguing the time of the place.
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 9, 2018 19:23:11 GMT -6
Custer did get close to the river but wound up retreating from it. Unknown if it was ford B or ford D. I believe it was ford D. When I was a teenager, my mother the antique dealer brought home an old book on Indian wars, written in 1890. It was predominately about the ghost dancers (1890 timeframe) but had a section on LBH. One of the officers from Terry's command reported to the author of this book that they had found cavalry tracks that went down to the river, but made a u-turn and went back uphill. There were also a lot of unshod tracks going uphill, and the officer assumed this was a large force coming at Custer, hence his retreat from the ford. I no longer have that book and unfortunately cannot remember the title or author. I used that book as a resource for my ROTC assignment on how MOSSCOMES applies to battles and how ignoring those principles can get your ass kicked. I was assigned to study LBH and apply the principles to Custer and how he violated almost every one of them.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 9, 2018 20:24:53 GMT -6
Custer did get close to the river but wound up retreating from it. Unknown if it was ford B or ford D. I believe it was ford D. When I was a teenager, my mother the antique dealer brought home an old book on Indian wars, written in 1890. It was predominately about the ghost dancers (1890 timeframe) but had a section on LBH. One of the officers from Terry's command reported to the author of this book that they had found cavalry tracks that went down to the river, but made a u-turn and went back uphill. There were also a lot of unshod tracks going uphill, and the officer assumed this was a large force coming at Custer, hence his retreat from the ford. I no longer have that book and unfortunately cannot remember the title or author. I used that book as a resource for my ROTC assignment on how MOSSCOMES applies to battles and how ignoring those principles can get your ass kicked. I was assigned to study LBH and apply the principles to Custer and how he violated almost every one of them. There is a map obtained by Lt. Philo Clarke showing what you give. He copied the map drawn on the ground by a surrendered participant. He also went over the ground with participants one or two years on. It is from his work that the ford D name first appeared. Other information and maps are in conflict with Clarke and it all comes down to interpretation as ever. Freeman of 7th Infantry was present on the 27th June 1876, as was Patterson Hughes and both left sketches. Benteen made a map.
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Post by joshua on Mar 10, 2018 4:49:29 GMT -6
Custer did get close to the river but wound up retreating from it. Unknown if it was ford B or ford D. I believe it was ford D. When I was a teenager, my mother the antique dealer brought home an old book on Indian wars, written in 1890. It was predominately about the ghost dancers (1890 timeframe) but had a section on LBH. One of the officers from Terry's command reported to the author of this book that they had found cavalry tracks that went down to the river, but made a u-turn and went back uphill. There were also a lot of unshod tracks going uphill, and the officer assumed this was a large force coming at Custer, hence his retreat from the ford. I no longer have that book and unfortunately cannot remember the title or author. I used that book as a resource for my ROTC assignment on how MOSSCOMES applies to battles and how ignoring those principles can get your ass kicked. I was assigned to study LBH and apply the principles to Custer and how he violated almost every one of them.
Wonder if there's any way of finding out what book this was?
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Post by herosrest on Mar 10, 2018 6:46:17 GMT -6
I don't believe that is possible, without author or title. 1890 was seminal with regards this battle. I digress (in point) Alfred H. Terry passed away December 16, 1890. Robert Patterson Hughes continued his campaign to prevent blame for the defeat at Little Bighrn being attributed to his brother in Law (Terry). Terry was ineptly criticised at his funeral service and in rebutting this, the entire fiasco of recriminations started up all over again. Elizabeth Custer got involved and off it all romped again in a way far less civilsed than before. There is a worthwhile book in this hiostory of the history but the research and insight required is demanding. Custer's wife gets much blame for defending him but Pattersion Hughes was the one who would not let sleeping dogs lay. Entirely unrelated - B.G. Henry MullerIf it was one of Terry's staff, then that is a limited pool of suspects.... and might pay dividends. It might well be hughes. He left a sketch map showing tracks up the bluffs. There is not, unfortunately, a set of facts about the Custer Fight which actually are facts but what there is is a tombe of the blame game and CYA (cover your arse) from the beginning. MOSSCOMES – principles of waffle and perfect example of how well Custer performed at Little Bighorn.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2018 6:22:15 GMT -6
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 11, 2018 8:44:17 GMT -6
Tom, The book was bound in a tan cover and was quite old. I checked the date of publication and it showed 1890. It was like a compilation as it had a small section on LBH, but a great deal of the book was devoted to the ghost dancers and death of Sitting Bull and the events of that period. The book disappeared after I left home for the army, and my mother doesn't remember what happened to it. I wanted her to keep it for me but that did not occur. I am going strictly from memory of what I read in that book, hence I could be wrong about some details. I read the section on LBH much more thoroughly as I used it for my ROTC assignment on LBH, so I remember that section more clearly, but again, memory being what it is, some errors may have occurred.
In any event, the stories related to the author are second-hand accounts and are subject to errors, just like the Indian accounts and the retelling of stories like Martin's.
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Post by noggy on Mar 12, 2018 2:49:15 GMT -6
Tom, The book was bound in a tan cover and was quite old. I checked the date of publication and it showed 1890. It was like a compilation as it had a small section on LBH, but a great deal of the book was devoted to the ghost dancers and death of Sitting Bull and the events of that period. I`d love to know what book/collection of articles this is. But it seems strange that it`s from 1890 since Sitting Bull died December 15th 1890. Anything written about his death must have been published in this book within two weeks. Could it be a reprinting of a book written i 1890 but with more articles added?
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