List request for LBH tactical minutia books

[blackhawkmike]

Hi all, new to the site, background- I served in the 3rd Squadron, 1st Cavalry -hence my name Blackhawk-(as part of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team) in Iraq and have possibly a slightly greater interest in the warrior experiences and stories of the Sioux and Cheyenne in the 1860's-70's than the cavalry ha, and I've had an average to above average understanding of the LBH for many years, but just recently embarked on a quest to become very knowledgeable of the events of that day, (the details of what company fell where and what Indians were involved there, type of knowledge) and I am also currently creating the largest map and scenario for a computer based strategy game (The Operational Art of War) about the LBH. Others have been made but they were small and very half hearted. 

So with that in mind and knowing I have read these already:

Son of the Morning Star
A Terrible Glory
The Last Stand
A Cavalier in Buckskin
Little Bighorn 1876 (Panzeri)
Lakota Noon (using as a reference, haven't read it straight through yet)
Uncovering History: Archaeological Investigations at the Little Bighorn
and I've read a lot of really fascinating and informative posts on here before deciding to join, this place is a gold mine.

What are a few books that cover the details of June 25th really well? I am also interested in anecdotal accounts, opinions and letters and interviews by anyone involved in the campaign as well. What I'm content with is my knowledge of Custer's Civil War experiences and anything about Libby. I now want the debates about whether Weir made his attempt to reach Custer at 500pm or 520pm

Any advice greatly appreciated!

[Colt45]

Welcome, BlackhawkMike,
I served next door to the 1st Cav in the 70's. I was in the 2AD. You might want to get Fred Wagner's books, Participants in the Battle of the Little Bighorn, and Strategy of Defeat, a Timing Analysis. Both are must reads.

[blackhawkmike]

Thank you very much, I'd never heard of those.

You know what they say, 'If you ain't cav, you ain't...' lol

[AZ Ranger]

Welcome BHM

When I was younger the Army had a TV commercial that stated be all you can be. I took that to heart and joined the Marines.

Another book I would recommend since Colt gave two of my favorites is Michael Donahue's Drawing Battle Lines. You find Soldier, civilian and Indian maps in the book along with some great comments by Michael.

If you have a specific interest then we can focus on books in that particular area.

Again welcome blackhawkmike

Regards

AZ Ranger

[blackhawkmike]

I know what my Christmas will look like. I have never heard of Drawing Battle Lines either. Colt45, I began looking through Strategy of Defeat on Google books free preview yesterday and it looks really fascinating, ordering it this weekend.

Lol AZ Ranger at the Marines comment, I've always enjoyed the branch banter. Funny story, being a big age of fighting sail enthusiast, when I walked past the Navy office on the way to the Army recruiters office in one of those combined 'career' centers, a Navy recruiter rushed out to the hallway said jokingly said 'hey, stop here, don't head that way!' I told him that if they still had sails, hulls of Live Oak and fired broadsides of 24 pounders I'd join, and then I just kept walking. I wish I could have framed that puzzled recruiters face.

[blackhawkmike]

Yeah Strategy is really looking interesting, I've ordered it, but my biggest mistake before starting this thread was not to sit down and start Lakota Noon from the start. Wow, what a book and what an approach. It's pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Between that and Strategy of Defeat I think I will have what I desire.

I've still added all the books mentioned to my list.

I'm 44 and have been reading off and on about Custer and the Plains Indians and wars since I was a teenager, but this past year I've decided to finally visit the battlefield and to walk it as chronologically as is possible with a mental image and knowledge base that will make it the experience it should be.

[fred]

Dec 14, 2017 13:58:44 GMT -6 blackhawkmike said:

I am also interested in anecdotal accounts, opinions and letters and interviews by anyone involved in the campaign as well. What I'm content with is my knowledge of Custer's Civil War experiences and anything about Libby. I now want the debates about whether Weir made his attempt to reach Custer at 500pm or 520pm

Blackhawkmike,

Neither of your times is correct.

Tom Weir and his orderly left Reno Hill for what we now call Weir Point at 3:35 PM.

They arrived at the northernmost peak at 3:51 PM.

Benteen and companies H, K, and M departed at 4 PM precisely, and Benteen reached the northernmost point, joining Weir, at 4:20 PM.

You will find a more detailed breakdown of the intervening times in The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.

Best wishes and Merry Christmas,
Fred.

[blackhawkmike]

Thanks Fred, sorry for the late reply, busy life ha.

Lakota Noon blew my mind once I sat down and read it straight through. Now that I realize the 7th Cavalry (and the whole force) had what we called in Iraq 'Zulu Time', their Zulu time being Chicago time. I though this was really amazing that forward deployed units were using a standard non-local time as we do now.

I am personally convinced that this fight began in the morning, local time, all the Indian accounts state this and that time, depending on the point at which one calls the 'start', is somewhere before noon, around 9am local time, give or take an hour or so. That is my current belief.

I haven't done the math on what actual local time that would be according to the Indian accounts, but you are right regardless it is likely an hour and half prior to what I'd thought.

[noggy]

Jan 27, 2018 14:54:05 GMT -6 blackhawkmike said:

I am personally convinced that this fight began in the morning, local time, all the Indian accounts state this and that time, depending on the point at which one calls the 'start', is somewhere before noon, around 9am local time, give or take an hour or so. That is my current belief.

As in Reno`s charge being in the morning? That is something I have never heard proposed before, I think. Would you care to elaborate?

[fred]

Jan 27, 2018 14:54:05 GMT -6 blackhawkmike said:

Now that I realize the 7th Cavalry (and the whole force) had what we called in Iraq 'Zulu Time', their Zulu time being Chicago time. I though this was really amazing that forward deployed units were using a standard non-local time as we do now.

I am personally convinced that this fight began in the morning, local time, all the Indian accounts state this and that time, depending on the point at which one calls the 'start', is somewhere before noon, around 9am local time, give or take an hour or so. That is my current belief.

I haven't done the math on what actual local time that would be according to the Indian accounts, but you are right regardless it is likely an hour and half prior to what I'd thought.

Well, you are incorrect. The fight began at 1:35 PM, HQ-St. Paul, Minnesota time, the rough equivalent to 12:38 PM, local sun time. That was when Reno dismounted in the valley.

The difference between the two is 57 minutes. And Michno is incorrect in Lakota Noon. Not only was he incorrect in using John Gray's times as a substitute for reality, Michno is incorrect in claiming the troops were on Chicago time, which was 22 additional minutes later than St. Paul time, a full hour and 19 minutes later than local sun time at the Little Big Horn.

If you use anything else, it will skew your understanding of what occurred and when it occurred.

The entire timing of the battle(s) and the methodology used is contained in The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.

And by the way-- no offense intended-- but timing is not one of the issues I am willing to discuss or debate. I have spent too much time (5 years, ±) gathering data, going to the battlefield, measuring, researching, etc., to begin entertaining theories based on the writings, theories, and guesses of those who have never done the work.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[pequod]

Gentlemen,

Ah, the element of TIME; "But at my back I always hear, time's winged chariot hurrying near"... You've all heard that TIME is the best teacher, unfortunately , it kills all of its students...!

Robb (Pequod)

[benteen]

Blackhawkmike,

Welcome aboard. In addition to the books mentioned by other forum members, you may want to take a look at " The Custer Myth" by Colonel W.A.Graham. It is a good source book

Be Well
Dan

[pequod]

benteen,

...and, Graham's "The Custer Myth" is devoid of partisan rancor, something this generation could learn, if they were inclined to pay attention to what dispassionate writing is all about. Alas, it probably will fall on deaf ears.

Pequod

[herosrest]

Jan 28, 2018 9:17:21 GMT -6 fred said:

Jan 27, 2018 14:54:05 GMT -6 blackhawkmike said:

Now that I realize the 7th Cavalry (and the whole force) had what we called in Iraq 'Zulu Time', their Zulu time being Chicago time. I though this was really amazing that forward deployed units were using a standard non-local time as we do now.

I am personally convinced that this fight began in the morning, local time, all the Indian accounts state this and that time, depending on the point at which one calls the 'start', is somewhere before noon, around 9am local time, give or take an hour or so. That is my current belief.

I haven't done the math on what actual local time that would be according to the Indian accounts, but you are right regardless it is likely an hour and half prior to what I'd thought.

Well, you are incorrect. The fight began at 1:35 PM, HQ-St. Paul, Minnesota time, the rough equivalent to 12:38 PM, local sun time. That was when Reno dismounted in the valley.

The difference between the two is 57 minutes. And Michno is incorrect in Lakota Noon. Not only was he incorrect in using John Gray's times as a substitute for reality, Michno is incorrect in claiming the troops were on Chicago time, which was 22 additional minutes later than St. Paul time, a full hour and 19 minutes later than local sun time at the Little Big Horn.

If you use anything else, it will skew your understanding of what occurred and when it occurred.

The entire timing of the battle(s) and the methodology used is contained in The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.

And by the way-- no offense intended-- but timing is not one of the issues I am willing to discuss or debate. I have spent too much time (5 years, ±) gathering data, going to the battlefield, measuring, researching, etc., to begin entertaining theories based on the writings, theories, and guesses of those who have never done the work.

Best wishes,
Fred.

^Ducemus

An Officer's undated report to Headquarters Department of Dakota; Chief Engineer's Office under Special Orders No. 80, War Department, Adjutant-General's Office, April 21, 1876, and Special Orders No. 64, Headquarters Department of Dakota, dated May 9, 1876; states the following concerning the Dakota column's march from Fort Abraham Lincoln beginning 17th May, 1876.

'The amount of astronomical work accomplished during the season was but small. This was due to bad weather early in the season and later to the want of transportation for the instruments. It cannot be expected that on a campaign against hostile Indians, when it is difficult to obtain transportation for even the indispensable articles peitainrng to an armed force, chronometers and instruments can be carried. In addition to this, when pack-mules are used, the line of march is not as carefully selected as if the column were attended by a wagon-train, and consequently it is believed that the rates of the chronometers would be so irregular, that unreliable results would be obtained. Therefore, the instruments were left on the steamer at the time when pack-mules were substituted for the wagon-train as the means of transportation.

Observations were taken May 11, at Fort Lincoln, to determine the error of the chronometers. At the following places also observations were taken: May 23, Young Men's Butte; May 25, North Fork of Heart River; May 29, Little Missouri River; June 3, Big Beaver Creek; June 8 and 10, Powder River; June 12 and 14, Yellowstone River; June 16 and 18, mouth of Tongue River.

In crossing the bad lands immediately west of the Little Missouri, the chronometers "jumped," and, on account of the bad weather noted in the body of the report, it was impossible to detect the fact until too late. As the longitude-determinations depended entirely upon the differences of chronometric errors at Fort Lincoln and at the new points, the observations west of the Little Missouri are valueless. Annexed will be found a table giving the times of departure and arrival, the barometric and thermometric readings, with the resulting elevations, the distances traveled as indicated by the odometers, and the few latitude and longitude results obtained.'

link to source - page 1354.

Coffee breaker - A chronometer is a timepiece tested and certified to meet precision standards.

Fred, you were saying...... what?

Let's see............ divide 57 by 4 and...... what have we got? 14.25 ?

Riddle - Porcelain knot

Maguire's 1876 Report from p699 details the battle and included copy of his first map of the battle. See also pages 12 and 567 onwards.

From p 703 is Stanton's report.