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Post by alquedahunter on Nov 19, 2018 12:41:49 GMT -6
Yes Fred and I think the facts support your statement. Here's a quicky I learned while a CO. We gave certain people written instructions so one day in the auto-body shop I wrote this" Please take apart to so and so" Guess what , he did and it wasn't pretty.He never read the "to" and I failed to use proper spelling as in A Part. It's very easy to misconstrue or fail to properly communicate.Causes grief sometimes.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 20, 2018 6:39:38 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger No. Reno could ONLY be describing the "Big Village". Because (1) Reno's charge took it by surprise (per the statements of many Indians) and (2) Cooke wrote "big village" it was not "completely packed up and moving," and per other testimony did not do so until the following day. The Big Village was not within 2 miles of where the Indians were observed running that was in Reno Creek. There had been a smaller village in Reno that did pack up and run. The Big Village did move after the battle began but it set up again in close proximity. It did not pack up to move until later. There is a difference between moving a short distance and moving out of range of the U.S. Army field forces. Agree. Custer did not see the tipis in the Big Village until he climbed to the bluffs.
Disagree. In his written report quoted from, Reno was not referring to the Indians fleeing from the vicinity of the Lone Tepee but rather to his tour of Custer's portion of the battlefield that he (Reno) made after the Indians had moved on, Terry/Gibbon's column had arrived, and the situation was stable. There was only one village in question - that which you refer to as the "Big Village" based upon Cooke's note - and everyone in question would have been aware of it even if they didn't know its precise location or size. (1) The lone tepee village was no longer a village per se, but abandoned and (2) in Cooke's note "big village" would in my opinion best be described as descriptive (as you noted above by stating "Cooke described") and not comparative (as in "that (Lone Tepee) was a little village but this is a big one) or as a proper noun (the name of this village is Big Village). In his note, Cooke properly capitalized "Big" as it followed a period. While it could be interpreted either way, it appears to me that he used a lower case "v" for village. The person who wrote over the note to clarify the writing, whom I believe was Benteen, wrote the "v" as a capital letter (which he also did with the lower case "p" on "packs" that Cooke wrote, twice), but this has no bearing on Custer's/Cooke's intent or state of mind.
Custer ordered Reno to bring them to battle. Well that worked since the Big Village was going to fight and not move.
Sorry to be so pedantic. But from my reading of all this there is only one village in play, and that (Roamer) "village" was the strategic object of the Centennial Campaign (e.g., finding it and forcing its inhabitants to go to the reservation(s) set aside for them) as well as the tactical object of that day's offensive operations (including but not limited to Reno's "charge").
There are few things that are fact. Reno Creek was full of previous village sites. One I believe was still occupied. Varnum reports running Indians in Reno Creek. For sure Reno was not within two miles of the Big Village and was likely 4 to 5 miles from it.
Here is what Michael Donahue writes:
"The eight companies were approximately 3 miles from the Little Bighorn River and could see dust rising over the small ridges to their front. Custer was still not aware of the huge village in the valley ahead. Shortly after leaving the lone tipi, the lieutenant colonel gave Reno orders that were similar to those presented to Benteen. In a typical Custer fashion, he planned to react to the situation as it developed : there was no master plan. While the exact location and wording of the order has been debated, the essence was to attack any Indians in front of him, and he would be supported by the bt the other troops. Some witnesses remembered that Reno received his orders at the Lone Tipi.98 Reno recounted the order as 'General Custer directs you take as rapid as gait as you think prudent abd the village afterwards, and you will be supported by the whole outfit."99
Furthermore, Custer had been told of it and had himself seen evidence of it (viz. the horse herd and rising smoke) from the Crow's Nest.
If Custer believed that there was more Indians then they could handle at the exact location near MTF then he would not have sent Benteen. The scouts knew and it seems common sense that over 10,000 horses indicates a big population nearby.
You are correct. I erroneously called it Reno's "testimony" because it was attached to the Court of Inquiry record as Exhibit 4. I should have called it his "written report" or more precisely "a true copy of Reno's official written report of 5 July 1876 that was typed on January 9th, 1879 at Headquarters Department of Dakota and appended to the transcript of the Court of Inquiry as Exhibit 4". To me it does not seem to be a "version", but rather a PDF copy of the actual typed (or printed) report prepared for/at the Court of Inquiry. INTERESTING ASIDE: The first US typewriters, named the Remington after the manufacturer, were marketed in 1874. The first shift-key typewriter (Remington Model 2), which would have been used here (if the whole report was not, in fact, typeset) had only appeared on the market in 1878.
Blessings,
Ray
P.S. Thanks, AZ Ranger. I'm not used to being so precise any more in my expression and it is good practice for the financial settlement hearing of my divorce which will hopefully occur within the next 6 months or so. Good luck with that my Friend
Regards
Steve Andrews
One thing that might be interesting to you is that not all the Indians moved from the Rosebud up Davis Creek and then down Reno Creek and crossed the LBH. In Gordon Harper's book "The Fight on the Little Horn" there are 10 Chapters. But that is not all. There are also 8 analysis. The second analysis is "How the Indian Bands Came Together At the Little Horn. " You will find that 2,500 roamers were on the Rosebud 10 miles south of Davis Creek. and not part of the group that Custer had followed up the Rosebud. Gordie states another 2.000 were on Lodge Grass Creek and were moving away from Crook.
Gordie states that the two groups met the ones Custer was following at the mouth of Long Otter Creek along the LBH. "The village remained in this location for six days and it was here the village and it was here the other two groups joined, from the east and from the south". That is 4,500 Indians that Custer was not following.
Harper also related the departure of one half of that community from LBH valley on the night of the 23/24th (if memory serves) who moved through Lodge Grass towards the Tongue. As 7th Cavalry closed on the gathering of winter and summer buffalo hunters, as many as one half of them got away to south or southwest. Had 7th Cavalry continued along the Rosebud to the headwaters of the Tongue rather than move towards the LBH valley from the Busby camp; they would have been in the area of Ranchester at end of days march on the 25th and in moving down the LBH valley next day and detected the trail of the hostiles who moved along Lodgegrass. It is probable that signs of Crook's presence and fighting of the 17th would have been discovered.
With Terry then at the mouth of the Little Bighorn and 7th Cavalry in the valley at Lodgegrass - what would Sitting Bulls camp do? The two book set - linked are available reasonably priced as EBOOKs and very worthwhile reads. biggordie
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