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Post by noggy on Oct 26, 2017 1:55:15 GMT -6
I`ve never been able to agree eith myself when it comes to E Company. All theories regarding their movements / orders during the fighting around LSH have some issues I struggle with. So a book about E Company seems like a ok purchase and I ordered it the other day. Anyone here read it? Comments?
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Post by noggy on Oct 26, 2017 12:49:42 GMT -6
noggy, Read Michno's Lakota Noon after you read The Mystery of E Troop. He provides an update to E Troop. Robb For some reason I was sure Lakota Noon came befor E Troop, but I see that`s not the case. I`ve read snippets of Moon, so I`ll be sure to keep that in mid. Thnaks for the heads up. |
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2017 2:46:42 GMT -6
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Post by shan on Oct 28, 2017 8:34:49 GMT -6
Noggy,
I couldn't agree more, as I'm in something of the same position, in that I to have never been able to agree with myself about the actions of E troop. either
For years I went along with the prevailing idea that the skirmish line that had been rolled up by Lame White Man charge must have been E troop, which was situated a little North and East of Deep Ravine. But then various authors began to put forward the theory that it had in fact been a movement off battle ridge by C company that had sparked the LWM attack, and yes okay, that seemed to have a lot going for it, so I abandoned the idea that it was probably E troop's move that led to LWM deciding to launch his own attack.
But now, after years of reading and thinking, and also after having been to the battlefield itself and walked on the ground, I not so sure any more. I still happen to think that it was a mounted movement down off Battle ridge, that set LWM's own attack in motion, { there is plenty enough Indian evidence concerning that,} and that it was LWM's attack that was, in many ways, the beginning of the end. But as to whether it was C company or E ~~ well I'm beginning to think it may have been E company after all
Now, as has been said by many others, you can read as many Indian accounts as you like, and believe you me, I'm still reading them over and over again, but: and its a BIG BUT, because they don't specifically name various landscape features, I'm afraid you can use them to try and prove just about any point you want to make. Which brings me to Greg Michno's " The Mystery of E Troop."
I read that book shortly after it came out, and I'm afraid I wasn't at all convinced by his theory that the dead lay in Cemetery ravine and not Deep ravine, a view that was completely confirmed when I went to the battlefield and saw Cemetery Ravine for myself. Noggy, it is so shallow, any bodies found there would have been buried where they fell, just like most of the others on the battlefield, Yes okay, the ravine may have looked slightly different back then, but I doubt it was different enough to hide 28 men. However, having said that, I have to say that I thought that Lakota Noon was a much better book, although I too disagree with his notion of a two hour battle,
regards, Shan, David
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Post by noggy on Oct 30, 2017 14:14:40 GMT -6
Noggy, I couldn't agree more, as I'm in something of the same position, in that I to have never been able to agree with myself about the actions of E troop. either For years I went along with the prevailing idea that the skirmish line that had been rolled up by Lame White Man charge must have been E troop, which was situated a little North and East of Deep Ravine. But then various authors began to put forward the theory that it had in fact been a movement off battle ridge by C company that had sparked the LWM attack, and yes okay, that seemed to have a lot going for it, so I abandoned the idea that it was probably E troop's move that led to LWM deciding to launch his own attack. But now, after years of reading and thinking, and also after having been to the battlefield itself and walked on the ground, I not so sure any more. I still happen to think that it was a mounted movement down off Battle ridge, that set LWM's own attack in motion, { there is plenty enough Indian evidence concerning that,} and that it was LWM's attack that was, in many ways, the beginning of the end. But as to whether it was C company or E ~~ well I'm beginning to think it may have been E company after all Now, as has been said by many others, you can read as many Indian accounts as you like, and believe you me, I'm still reading them over and over again, but: and its a BIG BUT, because they don't specifically name various landscape features, I'm afraid you can use them to try and prove just about any point you want to make. Which brings me to Greg Michno's " The Mystery of E Troop." I read that book shortly after it came out, and I'm afraid I wasn't at all convinced by his theory that the dead lay in Cemetery ravine and not Deep ravine, a view that was completely confirmed when I went to the battlefield and saw Cemetery Ravine for myself. Noggy, it is so shallow, any bodies found there would have been buried where they fell, just like most of the others on the battlefield, Yes okay, the ravine may have looked slightly different back then, but I doubt it was different enough to hide 28 men. However, having said that, I have to say that I thought that Lakota Noon was a much better book, although I too disagree with his notion of a two hour battle, regards, Shan, David If I ever wrote a book about the battle, I`d just drop that part, maybe write something along the lines of "...and a bunch of soldiers from E Company died somewhere too, in a certain fashion." Great post, I relate to the changing of minds and re-reading Indian accounts. And I have. compared to many here, barely scratched the surface. I still find new things to read which adds to the confusion  And I really envy those of you who have the opportunity to visit the battlefield. Been saving up myself for a visit hopefully next summer. I feel I have a good idea of what Deep Ravine looks like, but I can`t remember seeing a single picture of Cemetery Ravine... Well, one day. Over the rainbow etc. Noggy |
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Post by noggy on Jan 11, 2018 4:55:46 GMT -6
And I`m finished... No idea what to think regarding his conclusion about Cemetery Ravine vs Deep Ravine, to be honest. A lot of good first hand accounts and interesting things regarding archaeology. Not too sure about the part written like a novel, though...the academic in me is put off by such things. But all in all enjoyable. Different takes and theories are always good reads (hope that`s the correct way to put it).
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Post by dave on Jan 11, 2018 10:56:38 GMT -6
Noggy Being as confused after reading Michno's book as before seems to go with the LBH theme. Nothing makes sense! Yet if they did die in the deep ravine would thy not have been washed out within the year? They could not have been buried under the ground that far above the river due to the drainage and gravity I believe. Then we have Benteen's testimony saying he saw 28 bodies in Deep Ravine and he is a pretty solid source is he not? Fred has commented on this matter on a different thread and I believe he has the best handle on this difficult issue. See 1) below. I have found some other threads that might be of interest and I hope I am not posting stuff of no value. See 2) below. The last source has additional information about the Deep Ravine Theory from Fred and many other good posters including the late DC. See 3) below Regards Dave 1) lbha.proboards.com/thread/1817/mystery-troop-gregory-michno2) lbha.proboards.com/thread/9463)http://lbha.proboards.com/thread/4033/deep-ravine-theory |
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Post by herosrest on Jan 11, 2018 11:00:32 GMT -6
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Post by dave on Jan 11, 2018 11:04:41 GMT -6
Noggy I have quoted one of Fred's posts from the Deep Ravine Theory thread that just shows that he is "The Gold Standard" on the LBH and the best thing is he will answer all PMs that are serious questions and thoughts. Regards Dave Sep 20, 2011 at 3:02pm
Quote like Post Options
Post by fred on Sep 20, 2011 at 3:02pm
"Ian,
There was only one "set" of men running toward-- not for, but toward-- Deep Ravine: E Company.
I have posted this before, but it seems apt to put it again, as well. I have not seen a better or newer listing anywhere. For my two-cents or gold guinea, you can take it to the bank:
Douglas Scott-- the archaeologist-- claimed Custer, five officers, and perhaps forty enlisted personnel lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill. These are the ones identified.
• 28 names are documented: 14 privates
Ygnatz Stungewitz (C)
Willis B. Wright (C)
Anton Dohman (F)
Gustav Klein (F)
William H. Lerock (F)
Werner L. Liemann (F)
Edward C. Driscoll (I)
Archibald McIlhargey (I)
John E. Mitchell (I)
John Parker (I)
Francis T. Hughes (L)
Charles McCarthy (L)
Oscar F. Pardee (L)
Thomas S. Tweed (L)
• Two civilians
Boston Custer (QM)
Autie Reed
• One surgeon: Dr. George Lord (HQ)
• One trumpeter: Henry Voss (HQ)
• Four NCOs
SGM William Sharrow (HQ)
1SG Michael Kenney (F)
SGT John H. Groesbeck (F)
CPL William Teeman (F)
• SGT Robert Hughes’ (K) body was most likely the one found at the head of Deep Ravine, though there is a remote chance he was killed on Custer Hill. Supposedly identified by CPT McDougall.
• Six officers:
GAC (HQ)
William Cooke (HQ)
Tom Custer (C – HQ)
Algernon Smith (E)
George Yates (F)
William Van W. Reily (F)
• Presently, 52 markers are located on Custer Hill; 42 bodies had been buried there initially.
• Deep Ravine (8 men from Company E):
1SG Frederick Hohmeyer
SGT John S. Ogden
CPL George C. Brown
CPL Albert H. Meyer
PVT Richard Farrell
PVT William Huber
PVT Andy Knecht
PVT William H. Rees
I know there is some confusion and controversy regarding Lord and Voss, but I have no credible evidence refuting Scott's claim.
Bruce Liddic presented his own description of where bodies were found. Grouped near Custer around the top of the knoll:
LT Cooke (HQ)
PVT Driscoll (I)
PVT Parker (I)
LT Smith (E)
SGT John Vickory – Groesbeck (F)
TMP Voss (HQ)
PVT McCarthy (L)
• Deep Ravine:
SGT Hughes (K)
PVT Tim Donnelly (F)
PVT Andrew Knecht (E)
• On a rise above Deep Ravine: CPL John Briody (F)
• Farthest north on the battlefield, opposite the present parking lot on the east side of the service entrance road: SGM Sharrow (HQ).
• Lower west side, down the slope from the monument, about one hundred yards from George Custer:
Boston Custer
Autie Reed
• About 20 feet southeast of GAC, on a hillside: Dr. Lord (HQ)
It seems to me the only discrepancies between the two are with Liddic's PVT Tim Donnelly and CPL John Briody, and I would accept Liddic's view on this because according to the narratives of several Indians who were there, a small group of horsemen-- I guess there were some remaining-- broke from LSH at the very end and were cut down near the headcut of Deep Ravine. This would account for Hughes, Briody, and Donnelly.
There is also some talk about one or two men-- possibly as many as four-- who tried to make a getaway. These are generally thought to be 1SG Butler (L) and CPL Foley (C). I would suspect they died earlier in the fighting rather than later because of their units. If I remember correctly, Richard Fox said in all likelihood they came from the Keogh Sector and were cut down before Benteen would have arrived on Weir Peaks.
I make the case that Tom Weir reached the northernmost peak at 3:51 PM and I also claim that the most intense fighting on Calhoun Hill and in the Keogh Sector occurred from 3:53 to 4:25 PM. Since Edgerly would not have reached the loaf area and consolidated his troops until about 4:14 PM, I would venture to say Butler and Foley made their run some time between 4 PM and 4:15.
Foley was probably killed first, while it may have taken a few minutes longer to kill Butler, but both men would have reached their gravesites in very short order, no more than a couple of minutes.
Another thing to consider is the fact that there was an enormous amount of dust and smoke and I doubt seriously if anyone could peer into that imbroglio and come out with a cogent tale of what was occurring.
Tom Weir lived only about 5 1/2 months after the battle, but claimed he had a tale to tell. I suspect part of that may have been the sighting of Foley and Butler. Not a single solitary sole ever said a word about it, not officer, not EM. This being the case, it is clear to me, no one saw it... except maybe Weir. We all speculate that Tom Weir had this smoking gun he brought to his grave. I just wonder if it wasn't merely his own guilt in not telling what he saw and did nothing about.
Combat is funny; you sometimes take blame for events you could not control or do anything about, almost as though you blame yourself for living when others have died. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't just such thoughts that haunted Fred Benteen for the rest of his life.
Best wishes,
Fred."
Read more: lbha.proboards.com/thread/4033/deep-ravine-theory?page=2#ixzz53tc9lpFR |
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Post by herosrest on Jan 11, 2018 18:09:30 GMT -6
There is early first hand evidence dating to 27th June 1876, from an experienced officer and noted observer which states that forty three dead lay around Last Stand Hill. Lieut. Bradley rode hurriedly over the field, and in a few minutes time counted one hundred and ninety-seven dead bodies. Custer fell upon the highest point of the field; and around him, within a space of five rods square, lay forty-two men and thirty-one horses. linkBradley's total casualty count was one hundred and ninety-seven bodies which precludes him having missed any of the Custer cluster of dead. Lt. Robert Patterson Hughes in a letter of 30th June stated: 'There were thirty five dead horses and I think they told me thirty four men who were buried upon the bluff upon which he (Custer) was found'. linkLink to battle topic with Patterson Hughes letter and map of June 30th, 1876. Robert Patterson Hughes played no small part in the battle's controversies and is worthy of some research. Hughes map link Above is Maguire's first sketch map of the battle.  The pictogram above shows the ravine dead near the river. |
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Post by noggy on Jan 12, 2018 16:00:43 GMT -6
Noggy Being as confused after reading Michno's book as before seems to go with the LBH theme. Nothing makes sense! Yet if they did die in the deep ravine would thy not have been washed out within the year? They could not have been buried under the ground that far above the river due to the drainage and gravity I believe. Then we have Benteen's testimony saying he saw 28 bodies in Deep Ravine and he is a pretty solid source is he not? Fred has commented on this matter on a different thread and I believe he has the best handle on this difficult issue. See 1) below. I have found some other threads that might be of interest and I hope I am not posting stuff of no value. See 2) below. The last source has additional information about the Deep Ravine Theory from Fred and many other good posters including the late DC. See 3) below Regards Dave 1) lbha.proboards.com/thread/1817/mystery-troop-gregory-michno2) lbha.proboards.com/thread/9463)http://lbha.proboards.com/thread/4033/deep-ravine-theory Yes it`s quite confusing, Dave! As I`ve said a couple of times I find the SSL, Deep Ravine and so on difficult to wrap my head around. I`ve read one of those threads, but not nr 2. Thanks! And I didn`t know there already was a thread about the book; I try to check before posting so that I don`t make threads about already discussed. |
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Post by noggy on Jan 12, 2018 16:23:02 GMT -6
noggy, The "Mystery of E Troop" should always remain a" mystery", because finding the remains will take away some of the "mystique of the battle", and cause the battle to be just another battle... Regards, Pequod True, peqoud... but there would still be enough to go around! |
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Post by fred on Jan 13, 2018 6:35:53 GMT -6
Yes it`s quite confusing, Dave! As I`ve said a couple of times I find the SSL, Deep Ravine and so on difficult to wrap my head around. I`ve read one of those threads, but not nr 2. Thanks! This part of the battle should not be difficult to understand. Indian accounts at the time of the fighting; white accounts upon discovery of the bodies; and marker placement today tell a fairly complete story. Once back from Ford D and arriving on Cemetery Ridge, Custer again split his forces, this time because he absolutely had to, in an attempt to contain or stop the flow of warriors out of the Deep Ravine head-cut. He therefore sent F Company into the basin for such an attempt. Obviously they failed. After being overrun on Cemetery Ridge by Runs The Enemy, HQ and E Company stumbled their way to Last Stand Hill. If you count the bodies/markers that should be there today-- and are not-- you would find 34 of the 36 E Company enlisted men accounted for: 6 on Cemetery Ridge and 28 in Deep Ravine. There were 9 bodies-- give or take 1 or 2-- found on the South Skirmish Line and we can think 2 of those were the missing E Company men (we know-- or do not know-- about E Company's 2 officers). While we do not know the specifics or the thinking once the two companies and HQ were together on Last Stand Hill-- along with the 11 refugees from Keogh's command-- we can make a pretty fair guess. Since the situation-- staying on the hilltop-- was hopeless, the only possible way to survive would be an attempt at a breakout. This is the exact same rationale Reno applied to his attempted breakout from the timber. Whether the decision was made by George Custer or someone else, the "plan" appeared to be one company would attempt the breakout (E), while the second (F) would support it. Obviously, it was a one in a million shot-- heat, exhaustion, heavy uniforms, fear, numbers, etc.-- but the alternative was simply to stand and fight... and die. Initially, like all such attempts, it worked. E Company charged off the hilltop-- probably led by LT Sturgis-- into the heavy dust, some few men mounted on the remaining horses, but most of them on foot, and the Indians parted, then re-grouped, attacked, and forced the majority of the men into Deep Ravine where they were killed. There is no other logical explanation for the bodies in the ravine being from one single company: the army, after all, works as an organized force. The nine bodies found on the SSL were probably those missing two from E Company along with a few others. Now whittled down to only a few remaining on LSH, Custer was overrun, with the final killing being done in Deep Ravine. There is no other reasonable, sensible explanation anyone has ever been able to provide, either on these pages or elsewhere. Again, when you take everything into consideration, all the factors, i.e., timing, conditions, dust, speeds, locations, environment, military actions, etc., no other scenario works. As for Greg Michno's belief all this E Company killing took place in Cemetery Ravine rather than Deep Ravine, it is nonsense. A marvelous rationalization for a book, but way off the mark of truth. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by dave on Jan 13, 2018 12:14:09 GMT -6
Fred
As always a cogent very well thought out answer. I have always been deeply affected by the plight of those soldiers running for their lives and seeking cover. Many have said they were foolish to go into Deep Ravine but how well did they know the terrain and how well could they have seen with the dust, noise and general confusion?
Never having been in combat, thank God, I wonder how much of these men's thinking was compromised by stress, panic and fear of death? Did it all occur so fast that the fight or flight mentality take the place entirely of thinking or planning?
Regards
Dave
PS Told you Noggy that Fred knew his business!
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Post by dave on Jan 13, 2018 23:28:06 GMT -6
Pequod
The fight or flight reaction is a natural one and thus is addressed in military training. Fred, Benteenest, Benteen and many other combat veterans on this board have all stressed how valuable military training is handling oneself in combat. The quality of the training of the average 7th Cavalry soldier was very short of what the modern soldier receives and one must feel for them fighting in such a battle often in very small groups with their officers nearby.
Shock, horror, panic, the noise and fog of battle were all eating at the soldiers minds and nerves with little or no succor at hand. I cannot imagine the state of mind for a young poorly trained and possible a poorly lead youngster finding that everyone nearby wanted his death and perhaps even body parts. God Bless their Souls.
Regards
David
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