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Post by dave on Mar 9, 2017 13:32:20 GMT -6
Wild your statement:
"The US Navy had intell... date and time of the attack on Pearl Harbour. Wasn't passed on to the defences. Was a wrecked battalion and the fact that Benteen was halting his command not of some interest to Custer?"
This is a very deceptive statement with pieces of truth and outright speculation that is not true. Many warnings were issued to US Forces in the days just before December 7 not one warned of an attacj by Japanese planes at 7:55 am.
US Nave never knew of the time and date of the attack. The actions of the USS Ward (DD -139) in sinking a Japanese midget sub at 6:37 am were reported to Naval Headquarters and NOT passed on to Admiral Kimmel or his staff
The radar contact at Opana Point at 7:02 am was reported but NOT passed on the General Short or his staff.
However, General MacArthur had several hours to prepare for an attack after the news of Pearl Harbor BUT he did nothing. That is a subject you can fully investigate and attempt to compare to Benteen not Pearl Harbor. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 13:50:17 GMT -6
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Post by benteen on Mar 9, 2017 14:12:25 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
I am going to go outside the box a little. I think that Richards negative remarks about Benteen is as much about doctrine as it is about Benteen. Richard was a soldier in his countries army. He takes pride in his Army and his service in it, as people from all countries take pride in their respective Armies. It has been said many times in the forum that in the US Military an Officer obeys orders, however if circumstances arise, the Officer is not just allowed but expected to assess,evaluate and take the best course of action depending on the circumstances.
Not so in Richards Army. You will obey your orders no matter what, and not deviate from them. Even if circumstances have changed and make the original order useless.
So I think Richard is defending his Armies doctrine as much as he is negative about Benteen.
So to US Army Benteen came across a situation where he had to make a decision. He knew Reno was in trouble and needed help, he knew nothing about Custer nor did Reno. I think that decision saved the rest of the 7th Cavalry.
To Richard Benteen should have gone by Reno and charged across the plain to go to Custer.
Richard....You know me for years and know that I never get upset about being corrected. I take nothing personal. So tell me if this is in part your feelings toward Benteen.
Be Well Dan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 14:50:32 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I am going to go outside the box a little. I think that Richards negative remarks about Benteen is as much about doctrine as it is about Benteen. Richard was a soldier in his countries army. He takes pride in his Army and his service in it, as people from all countries take pride in their respective Armies. It has been said many times in the forum that in the US Military an Officer obeys orders, however if circumstances arise, the Officer is not just allowed but expected to assess,evaluate and take the best course of action depending on the circumstances. Not so in Richards Army. You will obey your orders no matter what, and not deviate from them. Even if circumstances have changed and make the original order useless. So I think Richard is defending his Armies doctrine as much as he is negative about Benteen. So to US Army Benteen came across a situation where he had to make a decision. He knew Reno was in trouble and needed help, he knew nothing about Custer nor did Reno. I think that decision saved the rest of the 7th Cavalry. To Richard Benteen should have gone by Reno and charged across the plain to go to Custer. Richard....You know me for years and know that I never get upset about being corrected. I take nothing personal. So tell me if this is in part your feelings toward Benteen. Be Well Dan Dan I agree to some extent. If Richard was a new comer and served in a different army then it would explain the difference. But forever Clair stated that officers should make the best choice and then William (montrose) clarified it with the best available choice. So what I see is that Richard likes to argue and I have been doing that with him since the Against All Odds board. The problem is he wants to act as if he is a new poster from across the ocean and put up the same old argument as if it has not been clarified to him. I like Richard so will keep giving him the same answers. U. S. Army officer are expected to make the best available choice when necessary. Semper Fi Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:12:19 GMT -6
Here is wild in 2004
wILD I Brigadier General
Ireland Status: offline Posted - May 11 2004 : 09:17:33 AM Show Profile
The order to Benteen was "come on, be quick,bring pacs".Now like everything Custer did that day it was confusing. Could the order be interpreted as meaning "Rejoin the command"but what element of it?When the order was sent Custer was preparing to attack,he was not as yet in dire straits and needing rescue.The messenger did inform Benteen that the Indians were "skedaddling".So Benteen has this order to come quick and he has information that Custer has things well in hand and in front of him is the wreckage of Reno's battalion.What is he going to do? I think he acted correctly. Regards
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:14:26 GMT -6
Bon Giorno caro amico Lorenzo.Come va la vita?
Just a couple of points in relation to your post on the actions of Benteen. The message he recieved did emphasize the importance of the packs--ps "bring packs"this committed him to waiting for them to arrive.As regards the watering of the horses he had just completed a useless reconnaissance of 20 miles.Your fellow countryman Giovanni Martini the last messenger from Custer did not tell Benteen that he had seen Reno fighting for his life but he did tell him that he heard Custer shout "hurrah boys we've got them".This messenger conveyed no sense of crisis.At that point in time there was nothing that indicated that Benteen should have done anything differently. Slan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:15:24 GMT -6
Hi Lorenzo What does the order "come on" mean? 1/Join up with the Custer Battalion? 2/Join up with the Benteen Battalion? 3/Join up with the Pack train? 4/Attack village independently?
What information has Benteen got about the dispositions of the various units of the regiment or their condition when Martini arrives---none.His orders are to bring the packs and this means waiting for them which he does.
He then does carry out his order and "comes on"to find Reno fighting for his life.
Now just supposing his interpretation of Custer's order was to join up with him.He ignores the pleading of the 2i/c of the regiment and abandons Reno and his defeated and wounded comrades to the Indians and sets out to find Custer.Reno is over run within 10 minutes by Gaul and hundreds of victorious Indians who now turn their attention to Benteen's slow moving column.The Indians on fresh mounts easly overtake Benteen and attacking from the rear and flanks wipe him out. They then pour onto the Custer field joining in the total obliteration of the 7th cavalry.
If Benteen had tried to join up with Custer it would have done nomore than delay the enevitable by 30 minutes at the cost of the entire regiment. Slan agus beannacht
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:18:39 GMT -6
wILD I Brigadier General
Ireland Status: offline Posted - May 16 2004 : 12:07:24 PM Show Profile
look at the message.
1/ It is not timed. This renders the order useless from a military point of view. 2/Omits to say where it was written. So where is Benteen supposed to go? 3/It mentions a big village The village is 4 miles long.What part of it is Benteen supposed to head for. 4/The message fails to explain Custers intentions Where can Benteen expect to find him in 45 minutes? 5/Omits to say Reno is attacking.
Lorenzo you are basing your reasoning on hindsight and sentiment.
Benteen carried out his orders.He hurried the pack train along and did seek out the big village where he found elements of the regiment in great difficulty. When Custer sent the order to Benteen he knew that Reno was having trouble[Reno had sent 2 messengers to him].Why did he not order Benteen to assist Reno if he needed it? Having sent back the order why did Custer not take up a defensive position and await the reinforcements? Custer committed Reno and his 3 troops to attack without knowing what lay ahead or how he would support him.There was no chance of him being able to coordinate his attack with Reno's
The message sent back with a trooper who could not speak English is just one example of Custer having his head up his backside that tragic day.[Actually it was not tragic seeing as how the 7th were hellbent on a spot of genocide]
If Cooke had somehow survived he should have been charged with incompetance.
This is the message he should have sent
HQ GROUP TIME 3.34 lOCATION EAST SIDE OF LBH 3 MILES NORTH OF LONE TEPEE TO CAPT BENTEEN It is my intention to attack the North end of village. You are to proceed with your battalion and pack train to north of village and report to me. Make all possible haste. Note/Reno is now engaging hostiles at the South of village.At your discresion you may detach part of pack train and one troop to reinforce him. WW Cooke.
If any of you lads can write a better order Iwill buy you lunch the next time you are in Dublin I hope I made my point and it shows that Richard likes to argue and took a different approach 13 years ago
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:20:09 GMT -6
This one is too funny
Go to Top of Page
wILD I Brigadier General
Ireland Status: offline Posted - May 17 2004 : 07:19:28 AM Show Profile
Hi Lorenzo Many years ago when I was in the army and doing training on communications/messages they told a story just to illustrate how messages can go wrong.
A general sends back a message---- "Send reinforcements we want to advance" By the time it got to HQ the message read----- "send three and four pence we want to go to a dance.[hope your English is good enough to see the funny side]
Military messages have got to be precise otherwise you get the confusion that occured at the LBH. Slan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 9, 2017 15:22:52 GMT -6
wILD I Brigadier General
Ireland Status: offline Posted - May 18 2004 : 03:55:55 AM Show Profile
Hi Heavy Runner what would Benteen have found had he made the 50 minute trip--or 40 minute, or even 30 minute?
Next question: What would have happened to Reno's command sans Benteen's reinforcement of it?
The Indians reacted in overwhelming force to the 4 situations which arose during Custer's attack on the village.
1 Reno's attack------------Routed with heavy casualties 2 Custers attack ----------Annihilated 3Reno & Benteens advance---Repulsed 4Reno & Benteens defence---Heavy casualties /7th neutralized as an attacking force.
Any other action by any any of the units involved either alone or together would have resulted in serious failure.
As an attacking force the 7th had tired horses and effectively 6 rounds of ammo per man.What can you achieve with that.The numbers for warriors is given as 1500.I think if you throw in experienced granddads and excited grandsons you get at least 3000 fighting men in your face what ever convoluted tactics you attempt.
In this discussion some people have critized Benteen and Reno and make a case for Custer being a victim of the cowardice/incompetance/disloyalty of these officers.Well Custer did not support Reno as promised.He could not even attack the village and the handling of his command when in contact with the enemy and in defence was deplorable. If Custer had survived he should have been shot for murder for that is what it amounted to. Slan
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 15:43:20 GMT -6
Hi Dan Thank you for that brave effort ...a real gentleman. I will reply shortly. Best Wishes Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 9, 2017 15:51:09 GMT -6
Richard The intelligence available to US Commanders was actually so overwhelming that little sense could be made out of where and when the enemy might strike. US code breakers had broken the Japanese Diplomatic code but the Imperial Japanese Navy's code, which had been broken, changed just prior the attack. Kimmel and Short received so many bits and pieces of dissimilar information they could not possibly sort it out correctly. Issuing War Warnings without specific identification of where, when, who and how is useless. Fred and many others have far more information and knowledge than I about this subject,especially when you consider many of our combat vets were in Viet Nam and have a real understand of how big the Pacific is.
General Short was concerned with sabotage not a possible air assault as NO ONE on the American side had a inkling of a naval air raid on Pearl Harbor. Hawaii had---and still does--- a large segment of Japanese Americans living there caused far more angst that a military attack. One must remember the vast size of the Pacific Ocean precluded the ability to defend every asset from attack. As a former bureaucrat, I can attest to information overloads can and do cause the dreaded "paralysis by analysis" syndrome which is bane of all leaders.
"As regards the scene that greeted Benteen on Reno Hill it was par for the course, nothing exceptional Mc Dougal describes it as quite. It was a rout with all the attendent horrors but that is what Colonels get the big bucks for. Are we now to add the sight of blood to Benteen's defence? "
Feeling a little prickly today are we? Pretty causal comment regarding a life and death situation by a sleep deprived, worn out, confused man doing his best to reason "what in the hell is going on and where in the hell is Custer?" in the midst of a cluster cluck mob of confused, addled people not a group of soldiers. I find myself unable to comprehend the basis of your "Benteen screwed the pooch" belief by not leading himself and his battalion into a suicidal ride to glory.
Richard I respect your knowledge and integrity but your obsession with this Benteen could do no right belief reminds me of what General US Grant said about his admiration for Lee and Confederate soldiers I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse,”
Man you just need to drop this obsession and move on with life. No one agrees with you so go ahead and hold your belief close to your chest and give it a name as it is your child. I admire and respect your defense but you are too smart to continue drifting farther and farther away from reality. Please drop anchor and rest your oars. Regards Dave
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Post by dave on Mar 9, 2017 15:53:06 GMT -6
George did you get the PM? Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 16:04:21 GMT -6
Hi AZ LOL great research going back 13 years? I could have saved you the trouble if you had asked me had I changed my position re Benteen. Yes I have. I remember the late lamented called me a traitor. Unlike you I have an open mind and can be persuaded . My old friend was wont to say...... Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative. And as for argueing, should we borrow your tactic and dip into the other board and entertain ourselves with your and Keogh's efforts? If it wasen't for my contributations this board would be dead. But well done keep the aspidistra flying Regards Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 9, 2017 16:57:30 GMT -6
Hi Dave Thanks for the infor on Pearl harbour . I was searching for my source but as yet have failed to find it.However I did find an interview with Kimmels grandson where he says that US Naval Intelligence had broken the Jap codes with their "magic" code breaker and had supplied time and place to Naval HQ but this was not passed on to Admiral Kimmel. I was just using it to show the consequences of failure to pass on information.
Feeling a little prickly today are we? My apologies if I sounded a bit techy
Pretty causal comment regarding a life and death situation by a sleep deprived, worn out, confused man doing his best to reason "what in the hell is going on and where in the hell is Custer?" in the midst of a cluster cluck mob of confused, addled people not a group of soldiers He was colonel of civil and Indian war experience. not some debutant getting the faints on her first date. His job was to attack Indian villages.
I find myself unable to comprehend the basis of your "Benteen screwed the pooch" belief by not leading himself and his battalion into a suicidal ride to glory. I have never suggested such a thing. I will say it once again...Benteen was obliged to progress his orders as far as possible and this was as far as Weir Point or he should at least have attempted to get a messanger through to Custer. His halting resulted in adding 4 more companies and packs to Reno's defeat If the military were to operate your system of assisting wrecked units then all setbacks all defeats would be greatly exaserbated .Momentium and time and morale would be lost. He should not have even allowed his troops to mingle with Reno's rabble.
Richard I respect your knowledge and integrity but your obsession with this Benteen could do no right belief reminds me of what General US Grant said about his admiration for Lee and Confederate soldiers The board is a harmless obsession what page are we on here 8 ? there are threads with 40 pages on a single subject here.
Man you just need to drop this obsession and move on with life. No one agrees with you so go ahead and hold your belief close to your chest and give it a name as it is your child. I admire and respect your defense but you are too smart to continue drifting farther and farther away from reality. Please drop anchor and rest your oars. I try to keep to whatever subject we are discussing and leave the personal out of our exchanges. I have seen far too much nonsense. So my thanks for your views. Best Regards Richard
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