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Post by Mike Powell on Oct 27, 2016 12:31:59 GMT -6
I hesitate to call this "research", it's more "fill in the blanks". I've been wanting to look at significant fights on the western plains in the last half of the 19th century. The particular look I'm after is the number of combatants on both sides. My hypothesis (thank you Pequod) is that the odds involved predict the winner. Step One is to gather a list of events to tabulate. Here's what I have so far:
1862 Wood Lake
1866 Fetterman
1871 Blanco Canyon
1874 Red River
1874 Palo Duro Canyon
1876 Rosebud
1876 Little Big Horn
1876 Slim Buttes
Events like the Washita and Wounded Knee have been left out because, as fights go, they may be more ad hoc reaction by the defeated side then having any set-piece aspect to them. And Fetterman is so lop-sided it should be tossed and maybe will be.
I'd appreciate any guidance on additional events that I might ought to consider, again looking just for western plains, significant single actions. In fact I'd take any advice on offer.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 27, 2016 12:45:55 GMT -6
Slim Buttes stuff:
Expedition Commander: Brigadier General George Crook
U S Army unit participation
2nd Cavalry Regiment ( Companies A, B, D, E, and I)
3rd Cavalry Regiment (Entire regiment less Companies H and K)
5th Cavalry Regiment (Entire Regiment less Companies H and L)
4th Infantry Regiment (Companies D, F, and G)
9th Infantry Regiment (Companies C, G, and H)
14th Infantry Regiment (Companies B, C, F, and I)
Approximate strength of U S Army Forces: 1200
Native American Strength: Between 600 and 800 members of the Sioux-Cheyenne Confederation, with most sub tribes represented.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 27, 2016 13:19:11 GMT -6
You might throw in the battle of Beecher Island, as well as it supports Steve's theory. Some notes:
Sheridan directed Maj. George A. Forsyth to "employ fifty first-class frontiersmen, to be used as scouts against the hostile Indians, to be commanded by yourself." Recruited at Forts Harker and Hays in Kansas, the command took the field in late August in a region frequented by Comanches, Kiowas, Southern Cheyennes, and Arapahoes, augmented by some Sioux roaming south of the Platte. The tribes were restive. The Kansas Pacific Railroad was advancing through their country, frightening the buffalo their source of food, clothing, and shelter and attracting white settlement. The Cheyennes were still smoldering over the massacre of some 200 of Black Kettle's band, including women and children, by Col. John M. Chivington and his Colorado volunteers on Sand Creek in 1864, and had demonstrated their mistrust of the whites when Maj. Gen. Winfield Scott Hancock penetrated their area with a large expedition in 1867.
Forsyth and the Indians collided on the Arickaree Fork of the Republican River at dawn on September 17, 1868, when a combined war party of about 600 Cheyennes, Sioux, and Arapahoes attacked him in a defensive position on a small island in the river bed. The Indians pressed the fight for three days, wounding Forsyth and upwards of 20 of his scouts and killing his second in command, Lt. Frederick H. Beecher, and his surgeon and 3 scouts. Among Indian casualties in this Battle of Beecher Island was the influential Cheyenne leader Roman Nose. The NA began pulling out over night of the 18th and totally withdrew completely on the 19th. Losses, US 5 killed and 15 wounded, NA 30 - 32 estimated dead many more wounded. The island was rushed numerous times from various directions, Forsythe had shooters and fended off all. By the way, you would play hell finding the island, as the river has changed course several times and it is located in a field.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 27, 2016 13:38:39 GMT -6
Mike,
You might also pick up "Nez Perce Summer" by Jerry Green. It will give you a list of battles, that in the later stages, include many of the same players involved in the Centennial Campaign. I is inexpensive electronically on Amazon. Indian command and control displayed against huge odds. Green is a great researcher, as well as a great presenter.
Regards, Tom
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Post by benteen on Oct 27, 2016 15:30:11 GMT -6
Mike, You might also pick up "Nez Perce Summer" by Jerry Green. It will give you a list of battles, that in the later stages, include many of the same players involved in the Centennial Campaign. I is inexpensive electronically on Amazon. Indian command and control displayed against huge odds. Green is a great researcher, as well as a great presenter. Regards, Tom Tom, I was told years ago by an Officer, that at that time they were teaching at West Point, the tactics that Chief Joesph used to elude the Cavalry. I would like to ask Clair on the other board if it is still true but he doesnt seem to post anymore. "From where the sun now sets I will fight no more forever" Be Well Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 27, 2016 15:38:35 GMT -6
Dan, thanks for the thought. I can no longer post there. I think I said the moderator was insecure and condescending. Clair is a good poster and knowledgeable, if you hit him up I am sure he can find out.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Bill_S on Oct 27, 2016 20:21:20 GMT -6
Below is a link to a Wiki list of North American Indian wars. Each war has a link to a detailed article, which often includes the number of combatants. Please note it is a list of wars, so some individual battles, such as the 1874 Black Hills expedition might not be listed. The Encyclopedia of Indian Wars, by G. Michino is an excellent source of battle information. It is not expensive and it might be available at your library. Cheers, enjoy your research. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Indian_Wars
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Post by Mike Powell on Oct 28, 2016 11:05:52 GMT -6
Thanks to all above who have offered advice.
Does someone have insight on Palo Duro Canyon? Wiki says strengths are Mackenzie 400 cavalry, NA's 1,500 warriors. But NA's are left with some horses in their flight (other sources say none), yet horses captured are variously quoted as only 1,400 to 2,000. Seems light on captured horses, for villages with 1,500 warriors?
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Post by benteen on Oct 28, 2016 15:46:42 GMT -6
Thanks to all above who have offered advice. Does someone have insight on Palo Duro Canyon? Wiki says strengths are Mackenzie 400 cavalry, NA's 1,500 warriors. But NA's are left with some horses in their flight (other sources say none), yet horses captured are variously quoted as only 1,400 to 2,000. Seems light on captured horses, for villages with 1,500 warriors? Mike, I am not sure, but I think you could add another 0 to your numbers. Be Well Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 28, 2016 16:02:16 GMT -6
Thanks to all above who have offered advice. Does someone have insight on Palo Duro Canyon? Wiki says strengths are Mackenzie 400 cavalry, NA's 1,500 warriors. But NA's are left with some horses in their flight (other sources say none), yet horses captured are variously quoted as only 1,400 to 2,000. Seems light on captured horses, for villages with 1,500 warriors? Mike,
Elsewhere on this board I posted some after action reports, supplied by the Army, pequod did not like them, so I stopped. I will see if I can dig that one up. But, the reality is planning, sharing your plan, and executing. In short command and control.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 28, 2016 16:18:28 GMT -6
Mike As required, this may be more than you asked for: "September 26th and 27th, Colonel R. S. MacKenziq with Troops “A,” “D,” 11 E,” “F,” “ H,” “I,” and “K,” 4th Cavalry, after repelling two Indian attacks, surprised five camps of Southern Cheyennes and their allies in a canon near Red River, Texas, destroyed over one hundred lodges and captured their entire outfit including over fourteen hundred horses and mules. One enlisted man was wounded and four Indians killed. October 9th, on Salt Fork of Red River, Texas, the scouts of a column consisting of Companies “A,” “E,” “F,” “ H,” and “I,” 11th Infantry, under Lieutenant Colonel Buell, 11th Infantry, struck a band of Kiowas, killed one of them and destroyed their camp. Pursuit was made for a considerable distance, the main column destroying several hundred lodges in various abandoned camps, but the Indians escaped northward. October 13th, near Gageby Creek, Indian Territory, a detachment of Navajoe scouts accompanying the column under Major Price, 8th Cavalry, from New Mexico, attacked and dispersed a war party of Indians. October 17th, about five miles north of the Washita, Indian Territory, Captain Chaffee with “I” Troop, 6th Cavalry, surprised an Indian camp and destroyed their entire outfit, the Indians escaping in great haste; no casualties occurred."
Hope you don't need the additional follow up, as you pretty much have the numbers.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Mike Powell on Oct 28, 2016 16:29:04 GMT -6
One hundred plus lodges, 1,400 horses and mules; 1,500 warriors doesn't fit unless southern plains culture is a lot more collegial and afoot than I'd guessed.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 28, 2016 16:49:32 GMT -6
The plus included wikiups probably not counted. The after action report says nothing about 1500 warriors, it also does not mention how many horses they escaped with. Read 4 killed, what happened to the rest? Think about it. No mention here of women ,children, and old folks. It may be obvious The 4th did not chase,according to report.
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Post by benteen on Oct 28, 2016 16:51:13 GMT -6
One hundred plus lodges, 1,400 horses and mules; 1,500 warriors doesn't fit unless southern plains culture is a lot more collegial and afoot than I'd guessed. Mike, My apology for the number of ponies being 15000-20000, I thought you were referring to the LBH. Iam sure Tom is correct as to the number in the Mckenzie fight. Be Well Dan
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Post by Bill_S on Oct 28, 2016 17:16:18 GMT -6
The Encyclopedia of Indian Wars states there were 200 lodges consisting of the Kiowa, Cheyenne and Comanche tribes. Regarding the horses, this is a quote from page 286: "The solders burned the tipis and captured an immense horse herd, perhaps 2,000 head. Determined not to let the horses be recaptured, Mackenzie had the Indian scouts select the best ones, then ordered the remainder shot, about 1,400 of them." The citation for the article is: Robinson, Bad Hand, 164-78; Fehrenbach, Comanches, 541-43 I have both of the books, but I am currently away from my home. I will read the cited passages and see if I can learn more. The Canyon is beautiful and interesting, certainly worth a visit. After the battle one of the pioneers of West Texas cattle ranching, Charles Goodnight, developed the JA cattle ranch based in the canyon. JA Cattle Ranch / Palo Duro Canyon TexasCheers
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