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Post by tubman13 on Sept 22, 2016 8:31:41 GMT -6
Welcome, siepe23, this board will attempt to answer and engage all, especially new members.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2016 9:27:34 GMT -6
The primary reason I believe for less than expected Scandinavians joined the Army, was that in almost all cases they came as family groups and in many cases had relatives or neighbors already in the US. During the post CW era, as a rule they did not stay in the East, but when on to the Midwest where they could obtain land. They generally had a strong family bond, which tended to keep the young men from leaving the locality. Carl, That is a very interesting point you make there. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you are probably correct. I read a book about a family of Volga Germans who emigrated to the States... North Dakota... in the 1890s. Same kind of thing, though probably a bit later. Nice post, my friend. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 22, 2016 9:36:09 GMT -6
Here is a little information on Keogh...
Keogh, CPT (Bvt LTC) Myles Walter—b. Orchard House, Leighlinbridge, County Carlow, Ireland, 25 Mar 1840–d. 25 Jun 1876, killed at the Little Big Horn, while commanding one of Custer’s two battalions. Company I: Commanding Officer. Thirty-six years old, 6'1⁄2" to 6'11⁄2" tall, blue eyes. DOR: 28 Jul 1866, date regiment was formed and the same as Benteen’s; the two senior captains on the campaign, though Benteen out-ranked him by virtue of his brevet. Promoted to captain, Seventh Cavalry, 28 Jul 1866, the date the regiment was organized. One of the more remarkable and colorful characters associated with the Little Big Horn.
Keogh’s body was found on the east side of Custer/Battle Ridge, with a bunch of others. Godfrey wrote: “Keogh was in a depression just north or below [Calhoun Hill] and on the slope of the ridge that forms the defensive line furthest from the river; the body was stript except the socks, and these had the name cut off; in life he wore a Catholic medal suspended from his neck; it was not removed” [Godfrey/Graham, The Custer Myth, 345]. Marker 178 on the battlefield is inscribed with Keogh’s name and photographic evidence suggests it may be accurately placed. It seems while Keogh was mounted during the battle, a bullet struck him in the leg, breaking it and going through to hit his horse, Comanche. That either threw him or he dismounted and was then rallied around by up to 18 enlisted personnel. There is some evidence his favorite horse was named Paddy, but Keogh did not ride him in the battle, preferring Comanche. Close friends with LT Henry Nowlan and on rather friendly terms with Benteen. Apparently a heavy drinker and described by more than one person—including Libbie Custer—as a “drunken sot.” This sobriquet, however, was rather vicious and in all likelihood, not deserved.
A devout Catholic, he served in the Papal Army from 7 Aug 1860–20 Aug 1861. When the army was defeated trying to preserve the Papal States, Keogh was tossed into jail. Repatriated, he was commissioned in the St. Patrick Battalion. With the Irish Zouaves in the Vatican until 20 Feb 1862. Awarded two medals by Pius IX: Medaglia di Pro Petri Sede and the Ordine di San Gregorio (Cross of the Order of St. Gregory the Great). Arrived in NY, 1 Apr 1862, having been recruited by American agents.
Served with Buford’s cavalry brigade: South Mountain, Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Mine Run, Gettysburg. Participated in more than thirty Civil War engagements, including the last cavalry action of the war, the raid on Salisbury [Kimber]. Was a prisoner of war, briefly [Kimber].
Assistant Inspector General for GEN Sully, 1869.
Despite an almost legendary status within the regiment, Keogh played little part in its earlier field operations, missing the Winter–Washita Campaign. Went south on reconstruction duty. Not particularly close to the Custers, though GAC wrote to Libbie, “I do think him rather absurd, but would rather have him stationed near us than many others” [Klokner, The Officer Corps of Custer’s Seventh Cavalry, 75].
Buried in Fort Hill Cemetery, Auburn, NY, Throop Martin Lot, on 25 Oct 1877. Survived by one and possibly a second brother and two sisters, all living in Ireland. Brothers: Patrick (oldest) and Tom (d. 15 Aug 1897). Sisters: Margaret and Ellen [Elisabeth Kimber, LBHA]. Ellen “married a John Donahue, and apparently emigrated to Tarrytown, NY … but appears to have been back in Ireland by 1876. Presumably her husband had died…” [Kimber]. Patrick was—or had been—the coroner of the county and it is uncertain if he was still alive, though contemporary newspapers seemed to imply that he was [Kimber].
Keogh “had become very close to the Martin family of Auburn NY. (Enos Throop Martin…) Two of his closest friends had married into the family: Andrew Alexander (married Evy-Eveline) and Emory Upton (married Emmy-Emmeline). Rumour has it that he himself was engaged to a third sister, Nelly (Cornelia) … but that’s not proven. It may be an after-the-fact rationalisation. But, whatever: he’d asked to be buried in their home town of Auburn, NY; and they—perhaps—went the extra mile by burying him in their family plot in Fort Hill Cemetery. Upton was buried there later, as was Alexander. So Keogh seems to have been accepted as one of the family—for whatever reason” [Kimber].
“A fun fact you’ll like, even if it has no relevance: Keogh’s grand-niece Margaret was killed while heroically rescuing a wounded Volunteer in the Easter Rising of 1916. (She was a nurse. Some say she was merely caught up accidentally in the fighting, others that she was an active member of the women’s revolutionary movement. I’d go for the latter, myself—those Keogh genes….) Nice, eh?” [Kimber].
Best wishes, Fred.
P. S. -- By the way, the "Kimber" references are from a lady named Elisabeth Kimber who used to post here. Elisabeth is from England, and used to work at The Reader's Digest where I currently live, in Pleasantville, NY. She no longer posts here because of all the acrimony in those bygone days... which is a darn shame.... Elisabeth is one of the most knowledgable people regarding American western history anyone would ever hope to meet. An extremely fine lady who I really miss here. FCWIII
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Post by chardvc on Oct 11, 2016 8:30:35 GMT -6
The primary reason I believe for less than expected Scandinavians joined the Army, was that in almost all cases they came as family groups and in many cases had relatives or neighbors already in the US. During the post CW era, as a rule they did not stay in the East, but when on to the Midwest where they could obtain land. They generally had a strong family bond, which tended to keep the young men from leaving the locality. Carl, That is a very interesting point you make there. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you are probably correct. I read a book about a family of Volga Germans who emigrated to the States... North Dakota... in the 1890s. Same kind of thing, though probably a bit later. Nice post, my friend. Best wishes, Fred. Thoroughly agree Fred the geography/nurture issues are almost certainly a major factor. Another is the relatively distant martial history of the Scandinavian countries compared with the German states, England and Ireland. Virtually all the latter countries would have had contact with relatives or neighbours over the previous 70 years who had fought in the Napoleonic period or in the various minor conflicts that followed. The Scandinavian countries and Norway in particular had managed to avoid too close contact with land based conflict and perhaps young men didn't see joining up as a way out of poverty or a byway to adventure in quite the same way as those from Ireland, Britain and Germany fleeing the poverty of the old countries let alone the Eastern States.
I guess there is also something to do with life experiences of horses and horse-riding. I am sure someone will correct me but I would have thought that horses were fewer and further between in Scandinavia than other European countries and therefore if a military career did beckon then perhaps the cavalry would not have been first choice. Not that horsemanship appears to have been all it could have been among the 7th at LBH.
Nice to be back BTW.
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Post by Beth on Oct 11, 2016 13:48:22 GMT -6
Thoroughly agree Fred the geography/nurture issues are almost certainly a major factor. Another is the relatively distant martial history of the Scandinavian countries compared with the German states, England and Ireland. Virtually all the latter countries would have had contact with relatives or neighbours over the previous 70 years who had fought in the Napoleonic period or in the various minor conflicts that followed. The Scandinavian countries and Norway in particular had managed to avoid too close contact with land based conflict and perhaps young men didn't see joining up as a way out of poverty or a byway to adventure in quite the same way as those from Ireland, Britain and Germany fleeing the poverty of the old countries let alone the Eastern States.
I guess there is also something to do with life experiences of horses and horse-riding. I am sure someone will correct me but I would have thought that horses were fewer and further between in Scandinavia than other European countries and therefore if a military career did beckon then perhaps the cavalry would not have been first choice. Not that horsemanship appears to have been all it could have been among the 7th at LBH.
Nice to be back BTW.
I'm not sure that you are right about horses being fewer in Scandinavia than other countries. At that time they were still the only form of land transportation in use. They were essential in agricultural and timber industries. Scandinavians almost universally elected to settle in areas of the US that were either agricultural or had timber industries both industries that used horses to a great degree. A young man coming from that background would be used to working around horses and handling them but not necessarily riding them. One of the factors that drove young men to join the military was economics and the lack of jobs. Agricultural areas tended not to be as hard hit at that time. A farm was basically a family run industry and there is always a way to squeeze a relative who needs help around the table.
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Post by chardvc on Oct 12, 2016 13:23:21 GMT -6
I guess there is also something to do with life experiences of horses and horse-riding. I am sure someone will correct me but I would have thought that horses were fewer and further between in Scandinavia than other European countries and therefore if a military career did beckon then perhaps the cavalry would not have been first choice. Not that horsemanship appears to have been all it could have been among the 7th at LBH.
Nice to be back BTW.
I'm not sure that you are right about horses being fewer in Scandinavia than other countries. At that time they were still the only form of land transportation in use. They were essential in agricultural and timber industries. Scandinavians almost universally elected to settle in areas of the US that were either agricultural or had timber industries both industries that used horses to a great degree. A young man coming from that background would be used to working around horses and handling them but not necessarily riding them. One of the factors that drove young men to join the military was economics and the lack of jobs. Agricultural areas tended not to be as hard hit at that time. A farm was basically a family run industry and there is always a way to squeeze a relative who needs help around the table. Very true Beth, I'm sure you're right. Certainly the poverty issue was a real one and one that really comes out in "They Died with Custer" by Scott, Willey and Connor. On the horse issue I'd put up some kind of argument that the 19th century farm animal was a world of difference from those being used by couriers, taxis etc and that the populations of Ireland, England and Germany were more familiar with the latter type of animal than those of Scandinavia - I have nothing to support it either way so I guess it will remain a wild claim!
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