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Post by siepe23 on Sept 21, 2016 6:51:13 GMT -6
My name is Steve. I live in Bristol, Pa., just outside Philadelphia, about as far as one can be from the Little Bighorn site without falling into the Atlantic Ocean. I am 65, but it's only been in recent years that my interest in the battle morphed from casual to buff-like. I am especially intrigued by the linguistic/ethnic variety embodied by the disparate participants at the battle as a reflection of the North American melting pot of the 19th century. Take, for example, the scout and interpreter Mitch Boyer, a mixed-race frontiersman who was arguably the most polyglottal person at the battle, the Canadian-born offspring of a French-Canadian father and Santee Sioux mother. He would marry into the Crow tribe and hire himself out as an agent of the U.S. Army. Thus he would have been conversant in Sioux, Crow and English, and likely knew French to boot. He may very have known sign language. Fascinating character.
I am am intrigued as well regarding Charles DeRudio and John Martin, the two Italian-born soldiers who accompanied Custer in the fateful campaign that sad, bloody summer of 1876. I wonder if the two encountered each other, especially during the stand on Reno Hill, and if they would have spoken Italian in conversation if they had met, especially since Martin was still grappling with the complexities of English. I speak Italian as a second language, a linguistic legacy via my mother, who grew up in Italy. I can imagine a meeting where the uneducated Martin reverts to his local dialect, only to be treated with disdain by the haughty, erudite DeRudio.
There are many others who intrigue me in a similar vein, but I'll leave off for now. I'd love to hear from anyone with like interests.
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Post by dave on Sept 21, 2016 7:53:30 GMT -6
Mike Welcome to the Board! I live in Mississippi a fair piece from Montana as well. Look forward to more posts from you. Welcome! Regards Dave
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Post by montrose on Sept 21, 2016 7:54:22 GMT -6
Siepe/Steve,
Welcome to the boards.
Obviously there were many different languages running around both US Army and Indian forces. Languages create cognitive frameworks that effect how you think.
For example, German is primarily a written language. The rules are designed around reading and writing,. SO German is easier to read and write, harder to speak. French is designed around speaking. The design tomeans exceptions to make talking easier, make reading and writing harder. The language rules directly impact, if not create, the cultural difference between France and Germany.
(I was fully fluent in both languages when I was active duty, also have lesser degree of training in Arabic, Chewa, Italian,...and Latin).
Cultural differences also frame cognitive networks. The variety of cultures is very relevant when analyzing accounts and outcomes. We had a poster on this forum who was very smart on this, but Darkcloud passed away last year.
There are thousands of posts here about DeRudion and Martini.
I actually came to this board following DeRudio. My field or study is terrorism. DeRudio is a terrorist. He was part of an anarchist terrorist group, very similar in organization and methods to the current Islamic terrorism. DeRudio is a convicted felon and an escaped convict. The fact that he was commissioned an officer in the US Army is mind boggling.
DeRudio was regarded as an incompetent officer in the US Army. He was a First Lieutenant, and senior officer in his company. He was unfit and incompetent, so he was replaced as commander of his company by a an officer of junior rank. He appealed this to regiment and department commanders; and was denied.
The US Army of this era assigned positions and promotions based on seniority, not merit. There were no evaluations, no promotion boards no way to select someone based on ability. It was all about DOR: Date of Rank. And the infamous Army list. This was published eery year, and ranked every officer in the ARmy, at every grade.
Welcome to the boards. I hope you have fun here.
At LBH, he showed gross incompetence, and gross cowardice. The belief that he was unfit to be an officer was fully justified by his performance.
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Post by siepe23 on Sept 21, 2016 11:04:51 GMT -6
Thanks for replying and thanks for reminding me that Count No Account was indeed a scoundrel.
I agree with you that the cognitive and cultural dissonance represented by those involved in the battle is a thesis worthy of much thought and study. My best friend has studied German since high school in the '60s, so I think he would find your observations about that language intriguing. I believe that Vincent Charley, the farrier killed near Weir Point, hailed from the German-speaking part of Switzerland. It's very likely I suppose that he would have had ample opportunities to speak in German while with the 7th, given the regiments large component of German/Prussian immigrants.
Again, montrose, thanks for replying.
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Post by fred on Sept 21, 2016 11:35:49 GMT -6
Steve,
Welcome to these boards. I think you will enjoy your stay here... we have matured into a very good group of posters, all with a vast knowledge of the Little Big Horn... and some other tangential subjects which always turn into some fun.
Since you appear to be interested in some of the demographics intertwined with this contentious event, you might be interested in the following. And by the way, the "scoundrel's" name is always two words: De Rudio, though seldom seen that way. Two words is correct, however.
Anyway, here is something for you to peruse...
De Rudio, 1LT Charles Camillus (aka Da Silva; “The Count”; originally, Carlo Camillo di Rudio. Universally, if incorrectly, known as “DeRudio”)—b. Belluno, Venetia Province, Austrian Empire, 26 Aug 1832–d. Los Angeles, CA, 1 Nov 1910. Company A. Dark eyes, black hair, dark complexion; 5'7" tall. A genius for sculpture and a teller of tall tales! DOR: 15 Dec 1875, junior 1LT on campaign. Assigned to the Seventh Cavalry, 14 Jul 1869, in Benteen’s H Company. Educated at the Austrian Military Academy. Served on Garibaldi’s staff in Italy. The son of Count Ercole Placedo di Rudio and Countess Elisabetta de Domini [PGR]. Participated in an assassination attempt on Napoleon III (two years prior, De Rudio had been stabbed six times in a London restaurant by a knife-wielding fellow countryman) [PGR]. He was sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted to life and he was sent to French Guiana. He escaped from Île Royale (not Devil’s Island as is frequently stated) December 1859, [PGR]) and made his way to England. Emigrated to U.S., arriving in Florida in 1864 and fought in Civil War; 79th NY and 2nd U. S. Colored Infantry. Married Eliza Booth (b. 23 Feb 1841, Nottingham, England – d. 9 Jan 1922), 9 Dec 1855 at Parish Church, Godalming, Surrey. Had six children; he named them, Hercules; Brutus (d. young); Elizabeth (d. young); Italia; Roma; and America, the youngest three born in the United States [PGR].
In the summer of 1870, he commanded Company K and escorted a train of settlers in Kansas. They presented him with a saber as a thank you for his protection. In the Yellowstone Expedition of 1873. TDY from Company E. Michno claims he was re-assigned from E to Company A, because his promotion would have made him next in line to command E Company upon McDougall’s promotion to captain and transfer to Company B, and GAC did not care for De Rudio. Custer believed him to be a “confirmed grumbler and a natural conspirator … the inferior of every first lieutenant in this regiment” [Klokner, The Officer Corps of Custer’s Seventh Cavalry, 58]. Apparently, Reno did not care for him either, but the feeling was mutual, De Rudio eventually making the comment that if it were not for a coward (Reno), they would all have died in the timber at the LBH. Left behind in woods with PVT O’Neill, Gerard, and Billy Jackson after Reno’s retreat. Reached Reno Hill with O’Neill about 3 am on 27 June. Benteen referred to him as “Count No-Account.”
Took part in the 1877 campaign against the Nez Percé, serving under LT Doane’s scouting battalion. Spent virtually his entire army career on frontier duty in New Mexico and the Dakotas. According to Theodore Goldin, when De Rudio was promoted to captain and given command of E Troop, he managed to get O’Neill transferred to E and made him his first sergeant [Carroll, The Benteen-Goldin Letters, 23]. Retired in 1896; wholly retired in 1909 after being promoted to major.
Martini (also Martin), TMP PVT Giovanni (John)—b. Sola Consalina, Italy, Jan 1853–d. Brooklyn, NY, 24 Dec 1922. Company H: trumpeter; private. Attached to HQ as an orderly-trumpeter for George Custer, but returned to his company with a note for CPT Benteen. Hazel eyes, dark hair, dark complexion; 5'6" tall. Enlisted 1 Jun 1874. A drummer boy in the Italian army, he may have fought the Austrians at Custoza in 1866. Arrived in the U.S. in 1873. One of the more prominent and controversial names associated with the battle of the LBH. Famous for carrying back Adjutant Cooke’s note, the last word heard from the Custer column. Long career in the army. Married Julia Higgins, 7 Oct 1879 at St. Raymond’s Church, Westchester, NY. Children: sons John Joseph, Frank William, Lawrence Edward, George, and a daughter, Julia. Lived in Brooklyn. His death was probably caused by injuries sustained when he was hit by a beer truck while crossing a street. Buried in Cypress Hills National Cemetery, Brooklyn, NY.
Boyer (sometimes spelled “Bouyer”), Michel (first name sometimes listed as Minton. More commonly called “Mitch”; aka “Chopper”; “Two Bodies”; or Kar-paysh or Ca Pay or Ka-Pesh; also probably “Man-With-[or Wearing-]A-Calfskin-Vest.”)—b. 1837, making him 38 or 39 at time of battle (this, according to records, though he claimed to be about two years younger) – d. 25 Jun 1876, killed at the Little Big Horn, fighting with Custer’s command. QM employee. Assigned from Gibbon, 10 Jun 1876, for Reno’s scout, and again on 22 Jun 1876.
Mixed-blood French and Sioux. Spoke fluent Dakota and Crow as well as English. Probably about 5' 5" tall. Smoked a pipe. Wore a vest made of calfskin, tanned with the hair on [Hammer, Custer in ’76, 241]. Mother was a full Santee Sioux; father, Jean (John) Baptiste Boyer, was a French-Canadian trapper, killed by Indians some time before 1871. Hammer claims the father’s name was Vital and that he was a blacksmith killed in 1863 at Fort Laramie while trapping, but this is wrong. Gray points out the confusion with the name “Vital” (from a Vital Beauvais, which they pronounced “boo-vay”). Gray is certainly correct here. His research has the father being killed some time between Nov 1867 and Apr 1871. His best guess is late 1867. Boyer was a quiet-spoken, diffident man, who spoke in an almost hesitating way. Looked Indian, but dressed like a white man. It was claimed Sitting Bull offered a bounty of 100 horses for Boyer’s scalp [Stewart, Custer’s Luck, 105]. COL John Gibbon said Boyer was the only half-blood he knew who could give proper distances, in miles, with any degree of accuracy [Stewart, Custer’s Luck, 105]. Gray considered him the best guide/scout since Jim Bridger; he was a protégé of Bridger. “…a keen instinct … an open, adaptable, perceptive, and understanding mind” [Gray, Custer’s Last Campaign, 21]. Married a full-blood Crow named Magpie Outdoors (Mary, to whites) in fall of 1869. Had a daughter, also named Mary, within a year. Had two more children: Thomas and James. His wife “…proved to be a fine wife and mother, big-hearted, loyal, generous, and respected among her people…” [Gray, Custer’s Last Campaign, 89]. His wife eventually married Mitch’s best friend, Tom LeForgé, some time after both Mitch was killed and Tom’s wife, Cherry, died. Had been to the Crow’s Nest with LT Varnum.
According to archaeologist Richard Fox, his facial bones were the ones found near the middle of the South Skirmish Line (paired Markers 33 and 34), just below the crest of a ridge forming the north side of the primary drainage area of Deep Ravine. They indicate that is where he died. Bones are also consistent with his age, 35 – 45. Bone fragments included skull fragments; finger; coccyx. Consistent with the bones of a single individual. Also found were a .50/70 bullet; a lead bullet fragment; lead shot; a boot heel and boot nails; a rubber poncho button; three, 4-hole iron trouser buttons; one mother-of-pearl shirt button; a cedar stake fragment; and some cobbles. The pearl button is consistent with buttons found on the bib-front of a “fireman’s” shirt known to have been worn by Custer and other officers [Scott and Fox, Archaeological Insights into The Custer Battle, 92–93]. Forensics evidence suggests the individual may have had a deformed finger and may have been a pipe-smoker because of the wear on recovered left-side teeth: “a boot heel was found five feet five inches from the skull fragments. The distance between the fragments and the boot heel may approximate the man’s height. The skull fragments suggest that the head was crushed about the time of death” [102]. Other reports have Boyer in Deep Ravine, at the mouth of the ravine, in the LBH at MTC, between Custer and Reno, and lastly, several miles north of the battlefield. Also on Reno’s scout and may have been the cause of Reno moving to the Rosebud.
Research shows the following regarding birthplaces for the 576 enlisted personnel at the battle on June 25, 1876: • 247 foreign births: 42.9%. Of these, 104 (18.1%) were born in a country where English was not the native tongue; 143 (24.8% of total EM) were members of the English-speaking British Empire. • 329 U.S. births: 56.9%. • If you add all the English-speaking men together, they total 472 or 81.9% of the command.
European- and other foreign-born: 42.9% (non-English speaking countries in bold) 1. Ireland 97 (16.84%) 2. Prussia/ Germany 76 (13.2%) 3. England 26 (4.5%) 4. Canada 11 (1.9%) 5. Scotland 7 (1.2%) 5. Switzerland 7 (1.2%) 7. Denmark 6 (1.1%) 8. France 3 (0.5%) 8. Italy 3 (0.5%) 10. Sweden 2 (0.4%) 10. Norway 2 (0.4%) 12. Wales 1 (0.2%) Australia 1 (0.2%) Spain 1 (0.2%) Russia 1 (0.2%) Poland 1 (0.2%) Greece 1 (0.2%) Hungary 1 (0.2%)
(British Empire totals: 143 [24.8% of total EM])
American-born: 57.1% 1. New York 68 (11.8%) of total enlisted personnel 2. Pennsylvania 63 (10.9%) 3. Massachusetts 36 (6.3%) 4. Ohio 35 (6.1%) 5. Indiana 19 (3.3%) 6. Kentucky 15 (2.6%) 7. Illinois 13 (2.3%) 8. Maryland 11 (1.9%) 9. Missouri 9 (1.6%) 10. Rhode Island 7 (1.2%) 10. Virginia 6 (1.0%) 12. Maine 5 (0.9%) Michigan 5 (0.9%) New Hampshire 5 (0.9%) New Jersey 5 (0.9%) 16. Vermont 4 (0.7%) 17. Wisconsin 3 (0.5%) 17. Iowa 3 (0.5%) 19. Connecticut 2 (0.3%) West Virginia 2 (0.3%) Georgia 2 (0.3%) North Carolina 2 (0.3%) Louisiana 2 (0.3%) Tennessee 2 (0.3%) 25. District of Columbia 1 (0.2%) Delaware 1 (0.2%) South Carolina 1 (0.2%) Kansas 1 (0.2%) Texas 1 (0.2%)
Total 329
Again, welcome to Never-Never Land... and I hope you contribute... mightily.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by siepe23 on Sept 21, 2016 12:16:18 GMT -6
Fred:
Great stuff. What's the source? And thanks for the heads-up on De Rudio's name.
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Post by jodak on Sept 21, 2016 12:47:29 GMT -6
First off, welcome to the board Steve - it is always good to see new posters and welcome their contributions.
Secondly, a general question for all. When I reviewed the breakdown of demographics of foreigners above, it occurred to me that it does not appear to match up very well with the overall immigrant proportions. In particular, there were only a very few from Italy or Eastern Europe, which I found surprising, but maybe the large influx of immigrants originating from those locations did not occur until later. However, a cursory Google search revealed a document that included the following statement - "From the 1840s to 1850s, the second wave witnessed the arrival of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, and Scandinavia escaping famine, religious persecution, and political conflicts.". Ireland and Germany agree with the two most commonly represented foreign demographics in the 7th, but what about the Scandinavians? Why were there so few of them in the 7th and presumably the army in general? I know that none of you will really know, but I just found it curious.
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Post by fred on Sept 21, 2016 12:56:41 GMT -6
Why were there so few of them in the 7th and presumably the army in general? Now, you see!!!! It is stuff like this that makes this board so damn good. Let's see if we can tackle this great question. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 21, 2016 13:06:07 GMT -6
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Post by edavids on Sept 21, 2016 17:07:45 GMT -6
Welcome Siepe! Colorado here and about an 8 hour drive from LBH battlefiield. Have no more daughters to marry off so shoild be able to get there in 2017.
Also lived in NJ from 1979 to 2012, very familiar with the Philadelphia area and enjoyed several vacations in Amish country, New Hope area and Gettysburg.
Best,
David
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Post by siepe23 on Sept 21, 2016 17:28:53 GMT -6
David:
Thanks for the welcome. I was a staff writer and editor at the Newark Star-Ledger from 1995 to 2008.
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on Sept 21, 2016 20:02:50 GMT -6
First off, welcome to the board Steve - it is always good to see new posters and welcome their contributions.
Secondly, a general question for all. When I reviewed the breakdown of demographics of foreigners above, it occurred to me that it does not appear to match up very well with the overall immigrant proportions. In particular, there were only a very few from Italy or Eastern Europe, which I found surprising, but maybe the large influx of immigrants originating from those locations did not occur until later. However, a cursory Google search revealed a document that included the following statement - "From the 1840s to 1850s, the second wave witnessed the arrival of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, and Scandinavia escaping famine, religious persecution, and political conflicts.". Ireland and Germany agree with the two most commonly represented foreign demographics in the 7th, but what about the Scandinavians? Why were there so few of them in the 7th and presumably the army in general? I know that none of you will really know, but I just found it curious. My grandfather immigrated from Norway in 1900, and his wife, my grandmother's parents came from Norway in 1881. I personally knew my great grandfather. As a young man he served in the Norwegian Army, at a time when it was still under Sweden. I assume it was conscription. As a rule the Norwegians despite the Viking background are not militiaristic. Yet, when the Germans invaded Norway in 1940, my great grandfather, then in his 80s and bed ridden, when informed, said " those sons of bitches, give my a rifle/"
The primary reason I believe for less than expected Scandinavians joined the Army, was that in almost all cases they came as family groups and in many cases had relatives or neighbors already in the US. During the post CW era, as a rule they did not stay in the East, but when on to the Midwest where they could obtain land. They generally had a strong family bond, which tended to keep the young men from leaving the locality.
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Post by edavids on Sept 21, 2016 20:16:38 GMT -6
David: Thanks for the welcome. I was a staff writer and editor at the Newark Star-Ledger from 1995 to 2008. Small world! I was a sales rep for the Star-Ledger in 2007 so we may have crossed paths running for coffee.
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Post by dave on Sept 21, 2016 20:20:44 GMT -6
Steve When you see Mike tell him Hi for me. Sorry for the wrong name but it was close only 4 or 5 letters away.
I hope you will jump in and share with us your ideas and opinions especially regarding Martini and DeRudio. I had never thought about them being Italian and having lived in different social stratas and accents. Good stuff. Regards Dave
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Post by siepe23 on Sept 22, 2016 4:04:03 GMT -6
Not to repeat myself, but I have become infatuated with the idea of the LBH battle as a river of tongues, a fateful confluence, and clash, of so many varied languages and cultural experiences. If Charles De Rudio saw himself as a beau geste adventurer, he was no more so than Myles Keogh, who left County Carlow as a young Irishman to fight on two continents. One of my favorite films is "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon," but I can't watch it now without tsk-tsking during a scene early on where John Wayne's veteran cavalry commander refers to Keogh as a "happy-go-lucky Irishman." That's more John Ford's Irish sentimentality than fact. Indeed, in his book "The Last Stand," Nathan Philbrick suggests that GAC had grown impatient with Keogh's increasing moodiness and bouts of melancholia. I don't mean to bad-mouth Keogh; I think the man was a true cavalier down to his last moment. I wrote about him in my 2014 ebook, "What They Did There: Profiles from the Battle of Gettysburg."
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