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Post by benteen on Aug 13, 2016 8:51:17 GMT -6
......when and where did the notion of Custer going after the non coms first appear. Best Regards Richard, If I may take a crack at this. I think this whole deal with Custer looking to taking hostages stemmed from the Washita. At the Washita Custer took hostages to shield his command so they could escape not to win a battle. At the LBH Custer was looking to win a battle, and I dont think in anyway he thought taking hostages was going to help him do it. First of all the battle was four miles long, those Indians in a blood lust fighting Keogh and Reno wouldnt even know he had hostages. At the Northern end where he would take the hostages I dont think Custer would believe that the warriors would throw down their weapons and surrender because he had a few of their women folk. Richard, Custer killed, thats what he did. If he was attacking that Village in the North, I believe his intent was to kill, destroy, and cause havoc, not to take prisoners. Be Well Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 13, 2016 10:17:31 GMT -6
Fred, Dan,
I am all in. As I think GAC was all in as well.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Aug 13, 2016 11:11:40 GMT -6
Dan,
For the most part, I agree with you. Taking hostages would not necessarily get the "word" back to the fighters farther up-river; an attack, however, would as he would be driving people back that way. I just do not see a "round-up" as part of George Custer's mien.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Aug 13, 2016 11:28:21 GMT -6
. Custer wanted this to be his show(game, set, and match). Regards, Tom Tom, My thoughts exactly. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Aug 13, 2016 11:30:19 GMT -6
Benteen, Could it be Custer was intent on rounding up the women and children? But, your reasoning is good, nevertheless....! Pequod Robb, Thank you for the response. As to taking hostages please refer to my post to Richard regarding that subject. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Aug 13, 2016 11:36:07 GMT -6
Semper Fi Richard. Be Well Dan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 13, 2016 12:49:12 GMT -6
The route to ford D does correspond with the John Stands in Timber narrative, and out of all the Indian accounts his really holds water, well it does in my point of view. Not only was it one Indian talking to another but it was a step grandfather talking to his step grandson, so all the stuff lost in translation is not lost here.
As you know JSIT was told this story by Wolftooth and he saw the Custer column, he states the route was from LNC ridges, then along the eastern side of battle ridge, behind the cemetery and down to the ford, he makes no mention about ford B or Custer leaving men on Calhoun hill.
So this to me looks like Custer and all five companies moving to hit the village from the north and drive everyone back south towards Reno and Benteen.
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Post by wild on Aug 14, 2016 1:56:36 GMT -6
Custer is 4 miles from a possible ford D Reno is 3.5 miles from Ford D Custer is 7.5 miles from Reno via a possible ford D. Reno is 1.5 miles from MTCF Custer travelling slowly to avoid detection and by a circuitous route is an hour from Reno. The horses and men are at the limit of their endurance. The above suggested distances were unknown to Custer so he was unable to make an informed decision.
Any suggested Eastern route to Ford D requires a a map otherwise it is worthless.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 14, 2016 5:34:23 GMT -6
Ian,
If you have a map it would be helpful. I have no scanner to give Richard the idea. By the way, Richard, all maps presented by the white are all assumptions/guesses after 3411. I think Fred and others would agree with that.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 14, 2016 6:15:38 GMT -6
Tom here is the JSIT map, which shows the route given to him by his step grandfather Wolftooth. According to survivors Custer went at speed over the bluffs, so I think this was a five company attack to smash the north end of the village, and I can see a man like Custer throwing all his weight behind such a move and driving man and beast to the limit.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 14, 2016 6:32:51 GMT -6
Excellent, thank you Ian, and that from someone who actually survived the battle, giving his account, not through an interpreter.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 14, 2016 6:52:43 GMT -6
Ian,
Thanks for this as well. While it does not say where on the river, it adds to your map and could very well may be talking about the northern environs and the cemetery area as well.
Here are some Indian accounts from Lakota noon;
Lights; they got within a quarter of a mile of the ford, that’s as close as they got.
Lone Bear; the next soldiers he saw came from the northeast down Nye-Cartwright Ridge, as the soldiers neared the ford, they dismounted and began leading their horses, but they never got to the river. He then goes on the say that the indians had gone after Custer before he reached the river.
Shave Elk; the main body of the soldiers, led by a few troopers out in front, moved down towards the river and halted. They had only stopped for a short time when the Indians crossed over and attacked them. He then goes on the say that the Indians crossed over the river to attack the soldiers.
He Dog; 15 to 20 Indians fought the soldiers from the east side of the stream; they fought him near a dry river bed, but not near the river.
Standing Bear; the Indians crossed the river as soon as Custer came into sight. They took position behind a low ridge and were reinforced rapidly as more warriors crossed over. There was no fighting on the creek.
Bobtail Horse; unquestionably indicated they were on the east bank, on the same side as Custer.
Hollow Horn Bear; he first saw Custer’s troops coming over the top of a high ridge in the area of Nye-Cartwright. These soldiers came toward the river, but they only got as far as Butler ridge, it was near that ridge where the fighting started, there was no fighting near the river.
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Post by fred on Aug 14, 2016 9:27:11 GMT -6
The route to ford D does correspond with the John Stands in Timber narrative, and out of all the Indian accounts his really holds water, well it does in my point of view. Ian, You are 100% correct. I find very little to find fault with in the Stands In Timber accounts... and maps. Mike Donahue wrote a very good article for the Greasy Grass journal a year ago and he discussed the JSIT maps. They correspond quite well to what I have written and what you have been saying here. Good job, Ian. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 14, 2016 10:54:34 GMT -6
Fred,
There might be another book in this "LBH, the Alternate Theory" or "LBH Dispelling the Alternate Theory", by Frederick Wagner III. I would buy it either way.
Just think, Keogh pushed into swale when his company in struck a blow while traversing a gap in the ridge. He is part of a retrograde attempted in a leap frog type fashion, maybe he was DLIC, maybe E and/or F were. Maybe C&L were also cut off in an attempt to reach support. Enough, of that tact, could Godfrey and JSIT be on to something.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Aug 15, 2016 1:09:20 GMT -6
he makes no mention about ford B
[Note: White Cow Bull, Bobtailed Horse and White Shield all said Roan Bear was one of the few defenders at the ford when Custer tried to attack the village at Medicine Tail Coulee.... The above note as published with the JSIT narrative would seem to cast doubt on the above observation .
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