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Post by herosrest on Oct 4, 2021 8:45:53 GMT -6
Peter Thompson - The Black Hills Trails. 'After arriving there I took inventory of my ammunition. My pistol contained five cartridges, my belt contained seventeen cartridges for my carbine, a very slim magazine as a means of defense. I had left nearly a hundred rounds in my saddle bags...... Hi HR It makes sense that not EVERY SINGLE man in the 7th carried precisely 100 rounds for his rifle. 5 shots for revolver strikes me as more strange, at least if memory serves me right and he had not fired a single shot, just had an "aim-off" with 4 or 5 NAs. Either way, I guess the whole 50 in the saddle packs and 50 carried by a trooper can't be regarded as Gospel. Well, I'm not a believer so...the point stands! (I looked up now and the one source of his story available says nothing about shooting. But he does mention how "belts for carrying ammunition" were just coming into use, which I found interesting.) All the best, Noggy From Ebay as attachment - Indian War US Army Model 1876 Prairie Cartr....pdf (529.06 KB) Quote: Indian War Era US Army Cavalry Model 1876 Prairie Cartridge Belt for the US M1873 Trapdoor Rifle. The belt has 54 cartridge loops for the .45-70 cartridge. There is a square brass belt buckle. The belt is used, see photo's for condition. No rips or tears. Very minor fry spot on two of the cartridge loops, hardly noticable. This belt was modified for the 1879 Trials by adding three small brass rings that would be used to hang a bayonet or other accessory. The leather portion of the belt is still soft and supple, it is clearly marked: Watervliet Arsenal w/ A.R. Smith inspector markings. Very RARE to find one in this condition. From the DuckImageAccording to Thompson's text, he got into a fire fight at the Ford when Watson tried to ride into the village to be 'splashed' off his horse - landing like a frog in the water. This was after the Custer meet. Thompson's gun jammed (as they do) just when he needed it most but he was able to pry the cartridge free with his finger nails. Obviously not a nervous sort which has me wondering how many of the troopers that bit their nails, were killed trying to remove jammed cartridges.... one for D.D. Scott, perhaps. Thompson got a round into a war painted chief type Indian and perhaps one day it will be ascertained who it was he shot, or shot at. Perhaps it was White Cow Bull who was given by Humphries Miller as Custer's killer when all along it was Watson he missed at the upper lower ford opposite the village. Regards. Added The 1924 Peter Thompson text, is still up at Archive.org - link for online reading. The entire book is interesting stuff. Thompson's texts begins at page 131 with a little known picture of him. This was the text which I believe Gerry Shultz found during...... well.......... here's the story. June 14, 2007, a beautiful spring day, the sky had a blue to it that one can only see in Montana. It's no wonder people call it the Big Sky Country. At my shop we had heard about the flood that took place and had seen the pictures down at the yard office. My co-worker James and I headed west to inspect our tower sites. These sites are in remote locations, most on some hill top in the middle of nowhere. The site we were heading to is west of the Cottonwood Creek that had flooded eight days earlier. As we drove around the bend, the creek valley came into view and since we were atop the draw, our view of the valley was clear. We slowed down and surveyed the damage done by the flood. I was amazed on just how much the creek bottom had been cleaned out. There were new ponds and large sandbars now visible. This creek normally only has water running during spring runoff and during the thunderstorm season. As we drove down the valley it became apparent the extent of the damming and the flooding that took place, for there was a debris water line high up the banks of the valley. At one point the water must have been thirty feet deep. It is no wonder the railroad bridge was washed out, once this dam let loose.
We stopped and James got out taking some pictures of the devastation. I stood there wondering what this valley must have looked like when the flood took place. Suddenly something caught my eye. Way up the bank at the top of the water line I noticed some papers. The papers seemed out of place, so I crawled up through the debris to the point where the papers laid. I observed that they appeared to be some kind of documents, multiple pages stapled together. The papers were a copy of a hand typed manuscript, with corrections scribbles on the side borders. Yes, there were two copies of the same document, both had suffered water damage but were intact. The papers had dried out in the spring sun. The one was pretty crumpled up and the other was in good enough shape that I could turn the pages. I crawled down the bank and sat down and began to read the document. As I read this story to myself, James took a picture of me sitting and reading. James is my witness to my story and his camera caught this moment in time.
On the coversheet was the title, Custer's Last Fight The Experience of a Private Soldier in the Custer Massacre by Peter Thompson SourceThe Schultz Discover link[/div]
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Post by noggy on Oct 7, 2021 3:19:25 GMT -6
Hi HR It makes sense that not EVERY SINGLE man in the 7th carried precisely 100 rounds for his rifle. 5 shots for revolver strikes me as more strange, at least if memory serves me right and he had not fired a single shot, just had an "aim-off" with 4 or 5 NAs. Either way, I guess the whole 50 in the saddle packs and 50 carried by a trooper can't be regarded as Gospel. Well, I'm not a believer so...the point stands! (I looked up now and the one source of his story available says nothing about shooting. But he does mention how "belts for carrying ammunition" were just coming into use, which I found interesting.) All the best, Noggy From Ebay as attachment - View AttachmentQuote: Indian War Era US Army Cavalry Model 1876 Prairie Cartridge Belt for the US M1873 Trapdoor Rifle. The belt has 54 cartridge loops for the .45-70 cartridge. There is a square brass belt buckle. The belt is used, see photo's for condition. No rips or tears. Very minor fry spot on two of the cartridge loops, hardly noticable. This belt was modified for the 1879 Trials by adding three small brass rings that would be used to hang a bayonet or other accessory. The leather portion of the belt is still soft and supple, it is clearly marked: Watervliet Arsenal w/ A.R. Smith inspector markings. Very RARE to find one in this condition. From the DuckImageAccording to Thompson's text, he got into a fire fight at the Ford when Watson tried to ride into the village to be 'splashed' off his horse - landing like a frog in the water. This was after the Custer meet. Thompson's gun jammed (as they do) just when he needed it most but he was able to pry the cartridge free with his finger nails. Obviously not a nervous sort which has me wondering how many of the troopers that bit their nails, were killed trying to remove jammed cartridges.... one for D.D. Scott, perhaps. Thompson got a round into a war painted chief type Indian and perhaps one day it will be ascertained who it was he shot, or shot at. Perhaps it was White Cow Bull who was given by Humphries Miller as Custer's killer when all along it was Watson he missed at the upper lower ford opposite the village. Regards. Added The 1924 Peter Thompson text, is still up at Archive.org - link for online reading. The entire book is interesting stuff. Thompson's texts begins at page 131 with a little known picture of him. This was the text which I believe Gerry Shultz found during...... well.......... here's the story. June 14, 2007, a beautiful spring day, the sky had a blue to it that one can only see in Montana. It's no wonder people call it the Big Sky Country. At my shop we had heard about the flood that took place and had seen the pictures down at the yard office. My co-worker James and I headed west to inspect our tower sites. These sites are in remote locations, most on some hill top in the middle of nowhere. The site we were heading to is west of the Cottonwood Creek that had flooded eight days earlier. As we drove around the bend, the creek valley came into view and since we were atop the draw, our view of the valley was clear. We slowed down and surveyed the damage done by the flood. I was amazed on just how much the creek bottom had been cleaned out. There were new ponds and large sandbars now visible. This creek normally only has water running during spring runoff and during the thunderstorm season. As we drove down the valley it became apparent the extent of the damming and the flooding that took place, for there was a debris water line high up the banks of the valley. At one point the water must have been thirty feet deep. It is no wonder the railroad bridge was washed out, once this dam let loose.
We stopped and James got out taking some pictures of the devastation. I stood there wondering what this valley must have looked like when the flood took place. Suddenly something caught my eye. Way up the bank at the top of the water line I noticed some papers. The papers seemed out of place, so I crawled up through the debris to the point where the papers laid. I observed that they appeared to be some kind of documents, multiple pages stapled together. The papers were a copy of a hand typed manuscript, with corrections scribbles on the side borders. Yes, there were two copies of the same document, both had suffered water damage but were intact. The papers had dried out in the spring sun. The one was pretty crumpled up and the other was in good enough shape that I could turn the pages. I crawled down the bank and sat down and began to read the document. As I read this story to myself, James took a picture of me sitting and reading. James is my witness to my story and his camera caught this moment in time.
On the coversheet was the title, Custer's Last Fight The Experience of a Private Soldier in the Custer Massacre by Peter Thompson SourceThe Schultz Discover link[/div] [/quote] I'd not heard that story before. I know of the man, he was/is a member here and on the other board, if I recall correctly. So is the claim that Thompson wrote this himself, and lost it in a river for 90 years, or is the claim that someone else copied an original text using a typing machine and then lost it (in Montana, fittingly)? All the best, Noggy
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Post by montrose on Oct 8, 2021 9:17:42 GMT -6
For LBH: a soldier has 20 rounds in his cartridge box on his belt. He had four cardboard boxes of 20 rounds each in his saddle bags. How does he resupply with ammo? He can take a cardboard box and manually refill the 20 canvas loops in his waist box, if he has time. Or he can place the cardboard box on the ground, take a knee, and take rounds from there. Or he can dump the box into his hat, put the hat on the ground and take rounds from the hat. He can dump the rounds into his pockets, but the uniform pockets are poorly designed for this. Note that one of the post LBH changes was to add a cargo pocket to the uniform, just one on the right side for this very purpose. If you do not reload the waist cartridge box, you have a mobility problem. If you put rounds on the ground in whatever manner, you are static. If you want to stay mobile you can try holding the cardboard box in one hand while you fire, or holding a handful of rounds, while you fire. This will reduce accuracy. You can see the problems of ammunition resupply when in contact. A soldier has a basic load of 20 rounds. He has four more units of fire in his saddle bags. The doctrine is to fight dismounted, where soldiers form skirmish lines and move away from their horses. I believe this forum overlooks this issue. The argument on ammunition is what to do after a soldier expends 100 rounds, and then gets more from the wood ammunition crates in the pack train. This view is not relevant to this battle, or any battle of this era. The real issue is what do you do when you empty your 20 round cartridge box. Now individual soldiers have to return to their horses to get one or all of his cardboard boxes. You can send a detail to grab as many boxes as a man can carry but how many boxes can one man carry in his hands? Imagine if a corporal had a backpack with 20 boxes of cartridges? He could resupply shooters as needed along the skirmish line. the NCO would know his elements ammunition usage, and be better positioned to control and manage unit fires. The way things were done was very inefficient. Who is responsible for reassigning rounds from a horse whose rider is KIA/WIA? What does a soldier do when his horse is KIA/WIA/MIA with respect to resupply. Rounds are given to individuals, their is no collective resupply at company level. I stand by this old post. Am I missing something? The cartridge belt you are discussing came out years after LBH, and mainly because of LBH.
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Post by montrose on Oct 8, 2021 9:33:43 GMT -6
Simplicity is the best rule. The cartridge box held 20 rounds, so that is unit basic load. The revolver could hold 6 rounds, but procedure was to load 5, keep chamber empty. SO a soldier had 25 rounds, unit basic load (UBL).
The discussions that it was possible to break open a 20 round cartridge box and stuff rounds in a pocket, hat, some other crazy idea, is possible. But not probable. An NCO or officer who found such a lack of discipline would punish the miscreant.
We know the 7th Cav court martialed and punished soldiers for creating unauthorized cartridge belts. I believe this was CPT Keogh, right? And this was in the preparation period for LBH campaign, Sep 75 to May 76.
The four 20 round cartridge boxes sat in saddle bags from the day that left FAL to the day they crossed the divide. A decision to take a cartridge box from saddle bags onto an individuals person would be based on an order from chain of command. We know no such order was delivered. CPT Moylan is criticized for sending soldiers from firing line back to replenish ammunition, but this was responsible, mature decision making.
I believe 99% of board members do not understand that ammo on your person is what matters. IT does not matter what is in saddlebags, or what is on some freaking mule miles away.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by noggy on Oct 8, 2021 12:11:55 GMT -6
We know the 7th Cav court martialed and punished soldiers for creating unauthorized cartridge belts. I believe this was CPT Keogh, right? And this was in the preparation period for LBH campaign, Sep 75 to May 76. Hi Montrose. Interestingly, at least to me, it seems Anton Mills was the architect behind one of the first mass produced cartridge belts or the US army: history.army.mil/html/museums/uniforms/survey_uwa.pdf page 41. Though I find some parts here a little confusing as far as when certain pieces of equipment were introduced, I can understand it is not possible in all cases. It looks like an interesting read, will try to get through it when time allows. As for ammo, I can't believe there is a big difference between carrying the rounds on you and having them in the factory. Potato, potato. All the best, Geir
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Post by montrose on Oct 11, 2021 17:48:03 GMT -6
The problem is that once a soldier dismounted, they had 20 rifle rounds and 5 revolver rounds.
Ammunition resupply was a massive problem. It is no surprise that the Indians discussed the massive amount of Ammo they recovered, or even left on the ground. It was on the saddlebags. Notice piles of expended cartridges were found in many firing lines. I believe the highest amount was 17 found on Calhoun hill. The soldier who fired those rounds likely died trying to get to his saddle bags to replenish.
I believe that understanding the ammunition you have on your person matters. Ammo on a horse a click away is marginal. Ammon in the pack trains is as relevant to LBH as air support. I regard any one who discusses ammunition loads in the pack train as a poltroon. Time and distance matters.
I stopped posting here years ago, because I saw so many posts that were simply impossible, the fantasy board, and the Centennial board. I am bed bound for a few months, would like to talk to folks, bored out of my mind.
Lol, if you disagree with me, I may have to help you on how to disagree with me. If you have a sound hypothesis, weak argument: let's meet in the middle. If you fabricate data to support your emotional, irrational argument, then just go pound seem with poster Keogh, he of numerous LBH based criminal convictions.
But I am through with things that are factually impossible, or pure cosplay. Veteran Administration just told me how long they think I have left, I was hoping for infinity, it was a lot less. So I would appreciate a meaningful conversation, while I still can.
If things do not work out, it has been an honor meeting the folks on this board.
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Post by Bill_S on Oct 12, 2021 15:29:07 GMT -6
Montrose,
You might not consider my question a "meaningful conversation", but I would like to ask you a question which has been in my mind for some time.
Since it does not relate to this topic I have started a new thread here:
Cheers
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Post by benteen on Oct 13, 2021 9:04:18 GMT -6
If things do not work out, it has been an honor meeting the folks on this board.[/quote]
Colonel Bender, it is my honor and privilege to have met you on this board. Thank you for always taking the time to share your military knowledge with us, it is much appreciated and I
look forward to a lot more of it.
I know that you always suffered from a bad back, but apparently something new has come up. Do not let it defeat you, this is just another chapter, not the end of the book.
Get Well Your Friend Dan
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Post by noggy on Oct 14, 2021 1:26:13 GMT -6
I wish you a speedy and full recovery, Montrose. Sincerely.
All the best, Geir
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Post by Diane Merkel on Oct 15, 2021 11:12:29 GMT -6
montrose,
I am very glad you found your way back to these boards, but I understand your frustration with those who live in Fantasyland. We've had quite a few of those over the years.
I wish you the best with your health. Stay strong.
Diane
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Post by 1ralph on Jun 12, 2022 12:02:35 GMT -6
Each troop had 100 rounds for their spring fields. In a 30 second test between the Winchester Rifle vs the Springfield. A soldier could fire 4 rounds where the Winchester over doubled that number. That said, with Custer troops being green to combat and maybe poor skills with their weapons. Alot of them went through their ammo within twenty minutes which caused them to bunch up with fires who still had ammo. Once the ammo was gone the fight was over. The Indians were masters when it came to hand-to-hand combat. Moreover, on Custer Hill the forensic experts found no proof that a last stand occurred. I suspect that Custer went to this hill first to observe the situation while he deployed his wing to get noncombat's as hostages to end the battle. Once these units came under attack they deployed in a skirmish line. Custer Wing like Reno fail in the same manner where they were flanked and ran out of ammo. Then like Major Reno outfit it became every for themselves trying to reach Custer Hill. That explains why the bodies for Custer Wing were scattered. Last, Custer realization that the battle was lost, was seeing his men died as they attempted to return to his location. Since Custer position was officer heavy. The only weapon they had were their 45 Cal pistols. All the Indians had to do was to fire their arrows like artillery to take out Custer Hill. After that it was a mop-up with the Indians charging in on horseback.
Custer's biggest failings was he unintimated his opponent. He believed that one Cav Troop in a Cavalry Charge could take out any village. That explains why he divided his men to do separate attacks on the village. I suspect when he heard that Reno was having contact with the Indians. He divided his force into two wings which is a common cavalry tactic. He sent that wing into the village to aid Reno with his attack while he could develop the situation with his force. That Wing like Reno failed like Major Reno with an unsuspected resistance from the Indians, they had to retreat to high ground to establish a defense where they were wipe out by Crazy Horse because Reno left the fight and a lack of ammo.
Benteen got a bad rap. He got sent south because Custer didn't want him to have any credit or glory and I am also sure that the Unit that were a part of the supply train and Benteen Battalion had commanders and officers that Custer didn't like. This was one of Custer biggest mistakes was not making Benteen Battalion apart of Major Reno attack, Reno would not have retreated. If Benteen kept going to Custer location. His battalion would have been wipeout without the supply wagons carrying the ammo. This was the biggest factor that kept Reno and Benteen's defense successful during Little Bighorn.
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