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Post by montrose on May 25, 2016 5:05:43 GMT -6
Enclosed picture shows the cartridge box. This allowed the soldier to have 20 rounds on his person.
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Post by montrose on May 25, 2016 5:16:06 GMT -6
This is the cardboard box containing 20 rounds. This is similar in appearance to the box containing the springfield 45/55 cartridges.
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Post by montrose on May 25, 2016 5:44:50 GMT -6
For LBH: a soldier has 20 rounds in his cartridge box on his belt. He had four cardboard boxes of 20 rounds each in his saddle bags.
How does he resupply with ammo? He can take a cardboard box and manually refill the 20 canvas loops in his waist box, if he has time. Or he can place the cardboard box on the ground, take a knee, and take rounds from there. Or he can dump the box into his hat, put the hat on the ground and take rounds from the hat. He can dump the rounds into his pockets, but the uniform pockets are poorly designed for this.
Note that one of the post LBH changes was to add a cargo pocket to the uniform, just one on the right side for this very purpose.
If you do not reload the waist cartridge box, you have a mobility problem. If you put rounds on the ground in whatever manner, you are static. If you want to stay mobile you can try holding the cardboard box in one hand while you fire, or holding a handful of rounds, while you fire. This will reduce accuracy.
You can see the problems of ammunition resupply when in contact. A soldier has a basic load of 20 rounds. He has four more units of fire in his saddle bags. The doctrine is to fight dismounted, where soldiers form skirmish lines and move away from their horses.
I believe this forum overlooks this issue. The argument on ammunition is what to do after a soldier expends 100 rounds, and then gets more from the wood ammunition crates in the pack train. This view is not relevant to this battle, or any battle of this era.
The real issue is what do you do when you empty your 20 round cartridge box. Now individual soldiers have to return to their horses to get one or all of his cardboard boxes. You can send a detail to grab as many boxes as a man can carry but how many boxes can one man carry in his hands?
Imagine if a corporal had a backpack with 20 boxes of cartridges? He could resupply shooters as needed along the skirmish line. the NCO would know his elements ammunition usage, and be better positioned to control and manage unit fires.
The way things were done was very inefficient. Who is responsible for reassigning rounds from a horse whose rider is KIA/WIA? What does a soldier do when his horse is KIA/WIA/MIA with respect to resupply. Rounds are given to individuals, their is no collective resupply at company level.
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Post by tubman13 on May 25, 2016 8:06:27 GMT -6
Montrose, Your point about fire control is a salient point to this battle. Will you be in Rapid City, next month?
Regards, Tom
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Post by jodak on May 25, 2016 14:44:08 GMT -6
I can't make this open in exactly the right place, but from where it opens scroll up a few pages to page 196. The most relevant information is from the second to last paragraph on page 196 through 197. The previous pages provide some additional insight. You can make it larger with the + button at the upper left.
link
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2016 15:39:46 GMT -6
There's a brass 45-55 on FFR that matches a copper case on CH. Any insights on this board as to mixing ammo boxes and how/when? Weibert talks about finding brass cartridges below the Crow's Nest, so mixed ammo could have come from there. And or course there's sharing during the heat of the battle. The NA's did the same thing; it's very common that 44 and 44-40's were fired in the same rifle, and some matches are long and short .44's. The mixing matches with 44/44-40, long/short, headstamped/not headstamped has geographical controls, which is fascinating but I'm not prepared to discuss in more detail just yet.
Anyway, looking for more info if possible. LBM
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Post by tubman13 on May 25, 2016 21:32:48 GMT -6
The .44 Henry were rim fire(short?) introduced in prior to ACW, .44-40 were not, they were introduced in 1873. Would not chamber in the same rifles.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2016 18:29:09 GMT -6
Winchester made shorts and longs, and a match can consist of both. I didn't expect that at all.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 27, 2016 6:11:19 GMT -6
LBM
I can't find where they recovered at the battlefield what you have described. Here is what I found. Henry .44 rim fire, S&W .44 cases, and .44-40. What is your source for "The NA's did the same thing; it's very common that 44 and 44-40's were fired in the same rifle," in regards to what was actually discovered on the battlefield.
The Winchester .44 WCF and the .44-40 are the same cartridge.
Thanks
AZ Ranger
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 11:00:48 GMT -6
AZ Ranger and tubman13, thank you for taking the time and effort to look into this, I appreciate it.
Going back through my samples, I stand corrected on the .44/.44-40's, and memory failed me on this.
I do have .44 matches that are a mixture of longs and shorts. There are also some matches where the case lengths are the same but not the headstamps. It leads to interesting considerations.
regards, LBM
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Post by Jas. Watson on May 30, 2016 16:26:07 GMT -6
A comment on the cartridge box issue. The McKeever box was a garrison thing, as the Morrow (with Crook in 1876) photographs show, almost all soldiers used a troop made thimble belt holding as much a 50 rounds around the waist, so resupply wasn't as much of an issue. These waist ammo belts were so popular that later in 1876 the army devised the prairie belt which various models remained the standard field belt until the close of the century, the McKeever remaining a garrison item. That being said there -is- record of a McKeever box and part of a belt being found on Nye Cartright ridge some time ago.
Jasw~
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Post by mchlwilson on May 30, 2016 16:54:07 GMT -6
That being said there -is- record of a McKeever box and part of a belt being found on Nye Cartright ridge some time ago. Jason - can you supply more information on this? Found by whom, and when? Where did you learn this?
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Post by Jas. Watson on May 31, 2016 12:10:07 GMT -6
Jerome A. Greene "Evidence and the Custer Enigma, a Reconstruction of Indian-Military History" 1973-78. Page 48 in the artifact listing entitled 'Relic finds in the Custer battlefield vicinity'. Object 11.C (C being 'Other Artifacts') "1 McKeever cartridge box and part of cartridge belt."
When and by whom this was found I do not know, but would assume fairly early on. However, it is known that the Nye Cartwright ridge area has on occasion been 'seeded' by certain park superintenants to spark interest in certain people--whether this is true in this case I have no idea, but kind of doubt it, but it is why I put the dashes on either side of the -is- in mine above. Where this find rests today I also don't know.
The original McKeever box was intended for the infantry and was issued in pairs to be used with the Palmer Brace system one each worn on each side of the the front of the waist much like most ammo pouches today (the 'basic load' since long before the Civil War was 40 rounds). One had smooth sides and one had a swell on one end to hold the rifle tool. When the prairie belt came into it's own the Mckeever was relegated to garrison, continued to be manufactured with only minor variations (I won't bore you with them) and only one was issued--which had the swell for the tool. Thus the early flat sided ones that were part of the initial pair are quite uncommonly seen today. The cavalry generally never got the McKeever in the beginning, but in the early post war years tried a number of other designs, notably the Dyer and the Hagner #2 box (the #1 being a larger one for the infantry). But with the advent of the 'Fair Weather Christian' belt--the troop made thimble belts--and their popularity with the troops in the field, the boxes never were as popular and other than the McKeever, soon faded from use (except in the movies).
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Post by mchlwilson on May 31, 2016 17:01:37 GMT -6
However, it is known that the Nye Cartwright ridge area has on occasion been 'seeded' by certain park superintenants to spark interest in certain people--whether this is true in this case I have no idea, but kind of doubt it, but it is why I put the dashes on either side of the -is- in mine above. Where this find rests today I also don't know. I have heard that the tourist areas, i.e. Cemetery Ridge and LSH are rumored to have been seeded years ago, but never Nye-Cartwright or Luce. That's not even park property. Where did you hear that?
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Post by Jas. Watson on Jun 1, 2016 14:11:19 GMT -6
There has been, shall we say some skepticism, regarding some of the finds up there, usually when a VIP is involved. For instance, in 1943 Superintendent Luce wrote that when bringing a Park Service bigwig (funding) to that area the VIP was only there 15 minutes when he 'found'...
"a brass belt buckle, a tramped down canteen about 50 yards further, and in another hundred yards, a cavalry spur, and a 7th Cavalry hat ornament." [letter to Brinnenstool dated Oct 3 1943]
And before that time it was a big deal to find expended cartridge cases. Talk about 'luck'! Even in the cited letter he puts quotes around the word 'find'.
Perhaps these and others like them are legitimate finds and somehow VIPs seem to have more luck than the history people, I don't know, but some people are a bit skeptical about some of the 'better' early finds up there. You see at that point it was agreed that the N-C ridge area was indeed an essential part of the battlefield but there was some pressure against enlarging the battlefield park to include other areas and the power players needed to be convinced (perhaps a better word would be 'courted'), and what better way to show that the area was indeed significant ground? Politics rears its head.
Jasw~
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