Dull Knife Fight/Battle of Red Fork

[dave]

jodak
I had sent my DNA in and found out that I am 79% British, 10% Eastern European, 6% Irish and the rest Mediterranean. It was interesting to see one's heritage.
Regards
Dave 

[jodak]

I have always thought that I was a large portion Scotch (Scottish?), but my results did not provide a separate breakout for that. Instead they listed me as 41% Irish and 12% British, but, if I understand their methodology correctly, both of those overlap Scotland. I am also 16% Western European, but if you read the details it indicates that there is a lot of overlap and all three of those genetics (Irish/British/Western European) are commonly found in the other two locations as well. After reflection I realized that it is probably not surprising that I am a fairly large proportion (18%) Scandinavian, as Scandinavian linage was introduced into both Western Europe and Britain by the Vikings and Normans. The rest is just a percent or two of various things, including 3% Ruskie; I might have to change my view of Russia from now on!

[crzhrs]

jodak:

It may be possible that the relationship between NAs of the Western Plains and Whites is based on fairly recent history where there may even be elderly Whites whose parents or grandparents were affected by conflict on the Plains, whereas the conflicts in the east go far back to the 1600s in New England and progressively later as Whites moved west and south.

It takes time for wounds to heal, throw in racial & cultural differences and it is a slow process.

We know many Indians haven't forgotten what happened to them and the conditions they live in today which for some are far worse off than most Whites are dealing with.

[Diane Merkel]

Back to the topic . . . .

I started to give my opinion of some things in this article but decided to leave it to others. Here's an excerpt:

After Little Big Horn, the decimated Northern Cheyenne tribe traveled to the Red Fork of the Powder River, 26 miles from present-day Kaycee, Wyoming. Exactly five months after Little Big Horn, soldiers attacked in what is called the Dull Knife Battle of 1877. Then, following orders from Washington, the fewer than 200 Northern Cheyenne made their way to Oklahoma only to find insufficient government rations and no game to hunt.

Tribal women persuaded Dull Knife to return north. Challenged at Fort Robinson in Northern Nebraska and ordered to return to Oklahoma Indian Territory, the group of 148 refugees were jailed for their refusal. On Jan. 9, 1878, Dull Knife and the cold and unfed prisoners broke out and returned to their homelands in Montana.

On July 15, [Clifford] Eaglefeathers will assist unveiling a monument at Fort Robinson in remembrance.

Article: www.thedailystar.com/news/lifestyles/memories-of-dull-knife/article_566ee343-7050-5ef6-b23a-fcd749c35d90.html

Diane

[tubman13]

Pequad,

The Great Sioux war was not entirely over until 1881. I can list skirmishes if you wish. Not just with Sioux, but even half breeds who were supporting the Sioux. Miles and his minions were often engaged. I don't have time to detail today. I can deliver numerous if you required.

Regards,
Tom

[tubman13]

Pequad.

A war is in the eye of the beholder, if it was your wife defiled, your family killed, your cattle stolen, you might consider it a war. Miles was still in charge and he was still sending out portions of varied regiments to deal with these actions. I am sure there were some who thought they were dealing with the "Minor League", Miles did not, if you were the wounded or killed soldier you would not either.

Thanks for your permission to list, but I will limit. Great is in the eye of the beholder as well.

From some of the military action reports 1879 & 1880 These are but a few, and if I started with your end date or continued to January 1881, I would really tax the reader :

"Many depredations having been recently committed by Indians in the vicinity of the Missouri and Yellowstone Rivers, it was ascertained that large numbers of hostiles, half-breeds and foreign Indians, from British Columbia, including the Indians under Sitting Bull, were roaming upon United States territory, south of the boundary line. From a number of reliable persons who had seen the main hostile camp, this was estimated at not less than five thousand Indians, of whom two thousand were warriors, with twelve thousand horses. Half-breed Indians had also been trading with the hostiles and furnishing them with ammunition, so in July Colonel Miles was sent from Fort Keogh, Montana, with a strong force to break up their camp, separate the doubtful Indians from those avowedly hostile, and force the foreign Indians to return north of the boundary. Colonel Miles’ force consisted of seven companies 5th Infantry, seven troops 2d Cavalry, a detachment of artillery and some friendly Indian and white scouts. At Fort Peck he was joined by two companies of the 6th Infantry, and his entire command then numbered thirty-three officers, six hundred and forty-three enlisted men and one hundred and forty-three Indian and white scouts. The hostiles consisted of the Uncapapas, under Sitting Bull, the Min-neconjous, under “Black Eagle,” the Sans Arcs, under “Spotted Eagle,” and the Ogallalas, under “Big Road” and “ Broad Tail.”. Colonel Miles reported that the depredations of the hostiles hack resulted in the killing of not less than twenty men and the stealing of three hundred head of stock, all of which had been taken to the hostile camp. As a preliminary step the Yanktonnais camp of about three or four hundred lodges, were first moved to the south side of the Missouri, about June 23d."

"Miles’ column, consisting of a troop of the 2d Cavalry, a company of the 5th Infantry and about fifty Indian scouts, commanded by Lieutenant Clark, 2d Cavalry, had a sharp fight with from three to four hundred Indians, between Beaver and Frenchmen’s Creeks; the Indians were pursued for twelve miles, when the advance became surrounded : Colonel Miles moved forward rapidly and the hostiles fled north of Milk River. Several of the enemy were killed and a large amount of their property abandoned; two enlisted men and one Indian scout were wounded and three Indian scouts killed. Sitting Bull himself was present in this engagement. On July 31st, Colonel Miles reported that the main hostile camp had retreated north, across the boundary, to Wood Mountain ; the column followed and halted on the main trail at the British line, whence it returned to Milk River. Attention was then turned to the camps of the half-breeds which had formed a cordon of out-posts around the main hostile camp, furnishing the latter with the supplies of war. On August 4th, Captain Ovenshine, 5th Infantry, with a portion of Colonel Miles’ command, arrested a band of half-breeds on Porcupine Creek, capturing one hundred and forty-three carts and one hundred and ninety-three horses. On August 5th, four camps of half-breeds were arrested, numbering three hundred and eight carts. On August 8th, Colonel Miles reported the total number of half-breeds arrested by various detachments, eight hundred and twenty-nine, with six hundred and sixty-five carts. On August 11th, Lieutenant Colonel Whistler, 5th Infantry, with part of Colonel Miles’ command, captured a band of fifty-seven Indians with one hundred ponies, who had left the Rosebud Agency and were in the act of crossing the Missouri, near Poplar Creek, on their way to join Sitting Bull in the north.

"February 3d, a war party of Uncapapas attacked some citizens on Powder River, Montana; Sergeant Glover, Troop “ B,” 2d Cavalry, with eight men and eleven Indian scouts, pursued the hostiles for sixty-five miles and surrounded them near Pumpkin Creek, killing one Indian and wounding two, losing one soldier killed and one wounded; three Indians were prevented from escaping until the arrival of Captain Snyder, with a company of the 5th Infantry, when they all surrendered. February 6th, a band of Sioux stole fifteen horses from settlers in Pease’s Bottom, on the Yellowstone, and a number of horses from camp at Terry’s Landing; Crow Indian scouts pursued and overtook the Sioux, near Porcupine Creek and killed or recaptured all of the stolen stock. March 3d, Companies “I ” and “ K,” 5th Infantry, left Fort Keogh, Montana, in pursuit of hostile Indians north of the Yellowstone, and on March 8th, after a continuous gallop of forty miles, Company “K” succeeded in surrounding the Indians, captured thirteen ponies and sixteen mules. Marofi 4th, two citizens were attacked by Indians on Alkali Creek, Montana^ and one of the men wounded."

"March 5th, Lieutenant Miller, 5th Infantry, with nine soldiers and eight Indian scouts, attacked a band of hostile Indians, thirty miles west of the Rosebud, Montana, killed three of the hostiles and eight of the ponies, captured some arms and a large amount of ammunition, and destroyed the hostile camp; two Indian scouts were killed in the affair; the Indians escaped across the Yellowstone, and were closely pursued by Captains Baldwin, 5th Infantry, and Hamilton, 2d Cavalry. On March 9th, Captain Baldwin overtook the Indians, on Little Porcupine Creek, chased them for thirty miles"

[AZ Ranger]

There was nothing Great about the Sioux wars other than it is a name applied to the time period. A camp of 5,000 with 2,000 warriors is sufficient to meet any size requirement. I think any time soldiers are killing Indians it is an act of war. Whether you call it a war or a police action the killing is authorized. I think the Apache wars ended in the same manner with occasional fighting occurring up to 1924.

The deciding point for me is if the Army is involved and there is killing going on than I consider and act of war.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[tubman13]

AZ,

Good point, kind of like "The Great Korean Police Action" I am sure the Marines never thought that as a war either. Our current President has not used the phrase "war on terror", does that mean it is over?

Regards,
Tom

[montrose]

1. Wars vary in what is required to achieve victory.

2. Role of Battle. There are wars where a single battle can win the entire thing, or a campaign. But that is generally a conventional war event, between peer competitors. It is, as a general rule, irrelevant in unconventional wars, especially when nation states fight very different organizations.

For this era, a single engagement is meaningless. Victory or defeat is determined by annual campaign plans and overall operational plans, which encompass several years. The Indians were average at battle managements, very weak at campaign management, and useless at operational and strategic management.

In 1876, The Indians tried a unified campaign plan, which was very rare. They knew they had to mass to hold off the US invasion. They failed. The US prevented the Indians from gathering sufficient supplies to survive the winter, and established bases deep in Indian territory. By summer 1877 the area of operations was dominated by the US. Thousands of Indians surrendered, or became traitors and fought for the US. Remnant enemy forces fled to Canada.

An engagement involving fifty combatants can have equal or greater weight with an LBH engagement in this type of war.

[tubman13]

Why, than, Pequod are you wasting the above space and time to comment on anything so ("misplaced and, frankly irrelevant") tripe? You are the one who asked for a list, you got it. Would you also care for after action reports for Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah, to dismiss as non wars as well. I can supply.

Regards,
Tom

[jodak]

May 17, 2016 21:57:05 GMT -5 tubman13 said:

Pequad.

A war is in the eye of the beholder, if it was your wife defiled, your family killed, your cattle stolen, you might consider it a war. Miles was still in charge and he was still sending out portions of varied regiments to deal with these actions. I am sure there were some who thought they were dealing with the "Minor League", Miles did not, if you were the wounded or killed soldier you would not either.

Thanks for your permission to list, but I will limit. Great is in the eye of the beholder as well.

From some of the military action reports 1879 & 1880 These are but a few, and if I started with your end date or continued to January 1881, I would really tax the reader :

Tom, do you have access to action reports from the late 1850s or do they even exist? I've always been bothered by the often repeated contention that Reno had no experience fighting Indians prior to the LBH and think it possible that he was  involved in some skirmishes that history has forgotten in his pre Civil War period of duty in the Pacific Northwest.  In a letter to his son he said that this frontier duty was an invaluable experience for him, so it would seem likely that it involved more than just routine manning of posts.

[tubman13]

jodak,

He was assigned out west. He actually was a brevet Lt. due to his issues at Hudson High. He did see NA action, although minor. I will have to dig. The after action reports are from 1867 through the mid 80's. Ok, here it is 1st Dragoons, July 1857, he served with his unit on frontier duty at forts in Dalles, Oregon and Walla Walla, Washington until the outbreak of the ACW.

Regards,
Tom

[tubman13]

jodak

There are a number of citations about Indian Wars in the Northwest. This is probably why he was posted in this area with the 1st Dragoons.

www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=8132

[AZ Ranger]

May 14, 2016 11:57:27 GMT -5 pequod said:

Diane,

Yes, for the historical record, it was November 25, 1876, when Dull Knife's camp was attacked. The Great Sioux War would be over in less than a year, with the death of Crazy Horse on September 5th, 1877...

Regards,

Pequod

It ain't over till it's over. Yogi Berra


Have you ever listened to a firefight where there is a few shots going off and then a lot of firing finally tapering off to a few shots?

The whole time is a firefight.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

Tom

Make sure you pack your riding boots. Just in case.

Steve