Dull Knife Fight/Battle of Red Fork

[tubman13]

This battle took place 5 months to the day after the battle of the LBH. The battlefield is located on private land, about 20 miles west of Kaycee, WY. While the battle is mostly referred to as the Dull Knife fight, the primary chief at this point was Little Wolf. There were more than 900 Northern Cheyenne in the camp, 173, lodges(counted).

The objective of this operation by Crook was to attack Crazy Horse's village, as he felt CH was the ultimate leader of the free roamers at this point. While in the planning stages for the movement against CH Crooks scouts captured a young Cheyenne, who under tough questioning gave up the location of the Cheyenne camp on Red Fork. This information was backed up by another Cheyenne spy who indicated that CH had heard of the soldiers in the area and had moved some good distance north. Crook promptly changed the object of this operation to this Cheyenne camp. He sent Col. Ranald S. Mackenzie, into the Bighorn Mountains in search of the Cheyenne village. Mackenzie’s force consisted of 700 men in 11 companies of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cavalry regiments. Augmenting these troops were more than 400 Indian scouts, including about 150 Lakota and Arapaho, more than 100 Pawnee and roughly the same number of Shoshone.

The Cheyenne in the village knew that soldiers were moving through the Powder River Basin. Many wanted to break camp right away and head north to rejoin Crazy Horse. Most of the Council of Forty-Four, the tribe’s governing body, was in the village at the time. The Council itself, comprised of four representatives from each of the ten Cheyenne bands. This body served to oversee most traditional and day-to-day activities, especially during large gatherings of the tribe.

Last Bull, head chief of the Kit Fox military society, which normally took direction from the Council, as did all the Cheyenne military societies, felt it was not necessary to leave, and declared a type of Cheyenne martial law. He ordered his warriors to cut the saddle and travois cinches on the horses of anyone who tried to leave camp and called for a scalp dance to celebrate his society’s recent victory.

The following morning, as the scalp dance concluded, Mackenzie’s troops attacked the village from the east end of the valley. Alerted to the cavalry’s charge, Cheyenne women, children and old people fled to the hills west and north of camp as their men rushed to defend the village and to give their loved ones more time to escape. The fighting was brief, but intense. The Shoshone scouts climbed a high bluff south of camp and laid down a heavy barrage of rifle fire, immediately gaining control of all activity in the village. The Cheyenne managed to save their two most powerful medicine bundles—the Four Sacred Arrows and the Sacred Buffalo Hat, the early morning assault caught many people in bed, forcing them to flee into the mountains wearing little or nothing. In addition to their clothing, all their lodges and winter stores as well as weapons, cooking utensils and other essentials, including most of the horse herd were left behind.

The Cheyenne headed north, over the canyon wall and into frigid mountains. The image of their homes being burned in the valley behind them, while in front of them, a November blizzard rolled toward them across the range. Eleven babies froze to death that first night. It took them almost a week to exit the mountains, and nearly two weeks to find the camp of Crazy Horse, located near the east fork of Otter Creek in southeastern Montana Territory, a distance of nearly 150 miles from the battle site. The pitiful state of the Cheyenne filled their Lakota friends and relatives with fear. To see the Cheyenne so impoverished and badly beaten convinced many of the Lakota that their families could not risk the same fate. I think this battle had a big impact on the many surrenders the following Spring.

The above info comes from Wooden Leg and the Wyoming Historical Society.

Regards,

Tom


Read more: greatsiouxwar1876.proboards.com/thread/317/red-fork-fight#ixzz45dbIbekw

[crzhrs]

This battle broke the backs of the Northern Cheyenne but still many held out hope with Crazy Horse. While most of the Cheyenne escaped all their belongings and necessities for surviving were destroyed.

The Northern Cheyenne were some of the most fanatical and determined of the Plains Indians to resist the White Man. They held out longer and more ferociously than any other of the Plains Indians and as a result suffered the most. Even after giving up they resisted the reservation system so much that they decided to break out from their reservation when they found it unbearable. They escaped with many casualties and lived from mouth-to-hand during harsh conditions trying to reach Red Cloud's people only to suffer tragic defeat along the way.

To this day the Northern Cheyenne are some of the most impoverished and struggling of the Plains Indians. They still haven't given up being Cheyenne but at a price.

We still have to discuss Mackenzie, one of the most efficient and compassionate of the US Military. His goal was not to kill Indians but to capture and/or destroy as much of the Indians resources as possible, just like he did later with the Comanche he'd rather force the Indians in rather than kill them.

Custer should have learned something from the likes of Mackenzie . . . it was better to capture the village rather than kill Indians.

[tubman13]

The government outlook was to make the NA's completely reliant on the government, so they would behave and could be controlled. One of our governments first attempts at a welfare program, tantamount to being enslaved by the government. It has not gotten better with later day welfare programs.

Regards,
Tom

[tubman13]

Pequad,

All true, yet more and more reliant on the dole, why? Maybe someday we will get it right. This is probably the wrong forum to have the discussion. I will say we handled the NA's wrong, and continue to.

Regards,
Tom

[AZ Ranger]

I think welfare creates generations that are willing to accept being less than then can be in order to be able to do nothing. It also creates a voting block of those that want to maintain the status quo.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[crzhrs]

Let's not get into welfare and receipients . . . that will lead to various opinions and views.

However, I don't believe the government wanted the NAs to be dependent on them forever . . . just long enough for them to "adapt" to being White and self-sufficient!

One will have to long at lack of understanding of different cultures by those in power. They felt it would be easy for the NAs to give up everything overnight and be like them rather than a slow assimilation. The best way would have been for the government to allow NAs to still be Indians but slowly adapt to a more sedintary life. It would have been better if they were taught to be ranchers rather than farmers which from all accounts the Plains Indians hated.

It would have been better for NAs to learn White Ways without giving up many of their most important and cherished traditions.

They were not the grunting, unintelligible helpless Red Man, but could easily have adjusted given time, proper homes, food, clothing and education without forcing them to stop being Indians and become White.

Once a direct link to one's culture is broken or destroyed all the rest to follow will be stuck between two worlds and not being able to understand either.

Unfortunately to this day many tribes are still in states of poverty, alcoholism, illness, violence, lack of education and no hope for jobs.

The long history of the government's dealing with NAs is not glowing with praise but littered with tragedy.

[tubman13]

CH,
Damn fine post. You ever going to get Spring up there.

Regards,
Tom

[jodak]

Apr 14, 2016 11:58:26 GMT -5 crzhrs said:

Let's not get into welfare and receipients . . . that will lead to various opinions and views.

However, I don't believe the government wanted the NAs to be dependent on them forever . . . just long enough for them to "adapt" to being White and self-sufficient!

One will have to long at lack of understanding of different cultures by those in power. They felt it would be easy for the NAs to give up everything overnight and be like them rather than a slow assimilation. The best way would have been for the government to allow NAs to still be Indians but slowly adapt to a more sedintary life. It would have been better if they were taught to be ranchers rather than farmers which from all accounts the Plains Indians hated.

It would have been better for NAs to learn White Ways without giving up many of their most important and cherished traditions.

They were not the grunting, unintelligible helpless Red Man, but could easily have adjusted given time, proper homes, food, clothing and education without forcing them to stop being Indians and become White.

Once a direct link to one's culture is broken or destroyed all the rest to follow will be stuck between two worlds and not being able to understand either.

Unfortunately to this day many tribes are still in states of poverty, alcoholism, illness, violence, lack of education and no hope for jobs.

The long history of the government's dealing with NAs is not glowing with praise but littered with tragedy.

I grew up in East Tennessee in the heart of the Cherokee homeland, not far from many of their most important towns.  They had basically conformed to everything that you say above and were fairly well assimilated into white culture but were forced to move none-the-less.  However, an interesting aspect is that modern day whites in the area seem to have a great affinity for the Cherokee and take pride in their connection to them.  Most of the hills, streams, valleys and such still carry Cherokee names, and my high school mascot was even "The Cherokees".   However, my impression is that it is very different in the west, where there seems to be much more animosity and bitterness between Indians and whites and we have things like "Reno Creek" rather than the Indian names.  I remember seeing the singer Wayne Newton on a talk show many years ago, where he was talking about his formative years.  He said that he was of Indian blood (which had never occurred to me but after he mentioned it I realized that he did look Indian) that had been born and spent I believe up until he was about 7 or 8 years of age in Virginia and then his family moved to Arizona.  He made the statement that being part Indian was no big deal in Virginia but it was a BIG deal in Arizona, where he encountered a lot of prejudices.  That made an impression on me and I think it is similar to what I have experienced, where being part Cherokee is not only not looked down upon but is actually regarded as a sort of badge of honor, with many more claiming Cherokee descent than is probably the case.

[AZ Ranger]

Wayne Newton had a horse ranch near the Orme Ranch and it is now a shooting preserve. I would think he is an example of not growing up and staying on a reservation. I am not sure how much I believe about his hardships. He was on Bonanza at what appears to me to an early age.

As far as prejudice I think it is more about being different than being something in particular. The largest groups that hate each other here to some extent are Hopi and Navajo. They are different to each other but both are Indians.

One of women that worked in our front office grew up on a reservation where her family worked. She was non Indian and different and had stories to tell about it.

Myself in the Marines I noticed no difference with Indians. There were some black power demonstrations on the base in Viet Nam but it was ended quickly by the base commander. Other than that we were all Marines.

My friends include many Navajo and Hopi officers. I don't see them at the same time which is their choice. We train together and at those times there is a truce as best as I can tell.

For me helping the needy is important but government welfare is not the answer.

My first wife's sister was on it and I discovered more than I ever wanted to know about state welfare. A single mom loses money if she marries. Does that cause a lot of single moms? As children grow older the welfare checks grow smaller. Does that cause more children to maintain a substandard living?






Regards

AZ Ranger

[dave]

jodak
Did you go to Greenback High School?
Regards
Dave

[jodak]

I went to McMinn County High in Athens, TN - half way between Knoxville and Chattanooga.

[crzhrs]

There is a big difference between the conflicts in the East and West. It's been far longer back in our history when Whites/NAs were competing and/or fighting in the East than the West. There are even many elderly Indians alive to today who grew up knowing the Indians who lived the Old Life on the western plains and no one left alive today who can recall what their ancestors went through in the East.

That also includes many Whites who may have been affected by NAs during the Western Expansion and Manifest Destiny really not that long ago in history.

It takes time to heal the bigotry, animosity and hatred . . . many generations in fact and still it's not close to what it should be regarding White/NA relations in the West.

There has been better relations but the living conditions of many NAs in the West are some of the worst in the entire US.

It's a lot easier dealing with someone of a different color, race or religions one-on-one, but when you have entire communities having to interact it's very difficult to separate the individual from the group.

Hard to believe that is still happening in 2016 but let's not overlook the hatred today of those in other parts of the World that still look at someone who is not like them as evil even though they have never met.

[crzhrs]

pequod:

I would agree with you if there was no internet and cable TV. Today with world wide access to just about everything it's very disturbing that there are still those who look at "others" as completely alien and foreign to them whether it's in the US, Europe or any where else.

The world is getting smaller and smaller . . . it's way past time to stop with the finger pointing, name calling and accusations to those who are unlike what you conceive as "normal".

In all my travels throughout the world I have found that even though people look different, speak different, have different ways of doing things we all are the same.

We cannot afford to listen to the accusers, finger pointers, and name callers who try to divide us rather than unite us!

[dave]

Are you sure that you are not from Sweetwater and just putting on airs? I attended the University of Chattanooga for 2 years and had roommates from Whitwell and Ducktown. On Sundays we would go out toward Monteagle and watch the trucks lock up their brakes coming down hill and then go the truck stops for the all you could eat $5 buffets.

Drank a lot of beer in Tracy City and other hot spots like Soddy-Daisy, Rising Fawn and Lookout Mountain. Great places and good times in the late 1960's.
Regards
Dave

[jodak]

Apr 14, 2016 12:51:28 GMT -5 jodak said:

Apr 14, 2016 11:58:26 GMT -5 crzhrs said:

Let's not get into welfare and receipients . . . that will lead to various opinions and views.

However, I don't believe the government wanted the NAs to be dependent on them forever . . . just long enough for them to "adapt" to being White and self-sufficient!

One will have to long at lack of understanding of different cultures by those in power. They felt it would be easy for the NAs to give up everything overnight and be like them rather than a slow assimilation. The best way would have been for the government to allow NAs to still be Indians but slowly adapt to a more sedintary life. It would have been better if they were taught to be ranchers rather than farmers which from all accounts the Plains Indians hated.

It would have been better for NAs to learn White Ways without giving up many of their most important and cherished traditions.

They were not the grunting, unintelligible helpless Red Man, but could easily have adjusted given time, proper homes, food, clothing and education without forcing them to stop being Indians and become White.

Once a direct link to one's culture is broken or destroyed all the rest to follow will be stuck between two worlds and not being able to understand either.

Unfortunately to this day many tribes are still in states of poverty, alcoholism, illness, violence, lack of education and no hope for jobs.

The long history of the government's dealing with NAs is not glowing with praise but littered with tragedy.

I grew up in East Tennessee in the heart of the Cherokee homeland, not far from many of their most important towns.  They had basically conformed to everything that you say above and were fairly well assimilated into white culture but were forced to move none-the-less.  However, an interesting aspect is that modern day whites in the area seem to have a great affinity for the Cherokee and take pride in their connection to them.  Most of the hills, streams, valleys and such still carry Cherokee names, and my high school mascot was even "The Cherokees".   However, my impression is that it is very different in the west, where there seems to be much more animosity and bitterness between Indians and whites and we have things like "Reno Creek" rather than the Indian names.  I remember seeing the singer Wayne Newton on a talk show many years ago, where he was talking about his formative years.  He said that he was of Indian blood (which had never occurred to me but after he mentioned it I realized that he did look Indian) that had been born and spent I believe up until he was about 7 or 8 years of age in Virginia and then his family moved to Arizona.  He made the statement that being part Indian was no big deal in Virginia but it was a BIG deal in Arizona, where he encountered a lot of prejudices.  That made an impression on me and I think it is similar to what I have experienced, where being part Cherokee is not only not looked down upon but is actually regarded as a sort of badge of honor, with many more claiming Cherokee descent than is probably the case.

I took one of those DNA tests where you send off a saliva sample and they can supposedly tell you what your ancestry is, and I just received the results.  Alas, no Cherokee genes, which I had hoped for.  Turns out I am predominantly Celtic, which I kind of expected, followed by Scandinavian, which is a total surprise.