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Post by dan25 on Oct 27, 2015 18:47:35 GMT -6
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Post by dan25 on Oct 28, 2015 6:14:55 GMT -6
Thinking of the movies Zulu and Zulu Dawn mentioned on the other board, I just recently remembered I either heard or read an interesting fact about the filming of Zulu. Apparently they must have done to many re-takes of certain scenes and were running low on .455 blanks, or they didn't have a sufficient number of Martini Henry's to start with, so they substituted the henry's with bolt action Lee Enfields with the magazine removed. I decided to try and find some evidence of this and stumbled on this web-site that not only verified it, but shows it with pictures of the scene's. Notice the soldiers next to Lt. Chard infront of the wall of mealie bags www.imfdb.org/wiki/Zulu_%281964%29 Half way down this page on the right shows the bullets for the Martini Henry en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini%E2%80%93HenryRegards dan25
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phil
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Post by phil on Nov 3, 2015 7:30:52 GMT -6
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the links. They used Martini Henry Carbines in the film Zulu Dawn aswell. Another detail that they don't get quite right in the film Zulu, is that whilst on active service in Africa British Soldiers would stain their White helmets with tea, giving them a dull yellowy look.
As a side note, Colour Sergeant Bourne the definition of stoic, professional, Victorian NCO played by Nigel Green (excellent casting) in the movie, was only 24 years old at the time of the battle and lived a very long life, dying at the age of 90 on May 8th 1945. I'd like to think that he was aware of Germanys surrender in the last few hours of his life.
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Post by jodak on Nov 4, 2015 6:58:38 GMT -6
Just as an aside - one of the survivors of Rorke's Drift stated that the Zulus appeared to be more intimidated by the British bayonets than they were of the rifles themselves. I'm sure that I have probably seen a breakdown of the casualties caused by the two, but I don't recall now what it might have been.
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phil
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Post by phil on Nov 4, 2015 10:36:18 GMT -6
Hi Jodak,
I've seen a breakdown of British casualties but not Zulus. That would be good information to know but judging by the nature of the fighting and hastiness of the burial of Zulu dead unlikely to be accurate beyond estimation.
You're right, the Zulus did fear the bayonet. At 47 cm in length it gave the Soldiers a reach of more than two metres, with the added momentum of thrusting slightly downwards and the ability to penetrate Zulu shields it would have been hellish. There are numerous accounts of Zulus grabbing bayonets and rifle barrels with their bare hands only to be spitted or shot as they attempted to wrestle the weapons free.
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Post by jodak on Nov 5, 2015 11:42:30 GMT -6
I found this account from Pvt. Frederick Hitch. It might be what I remembered seeing before that I referred to in my previous message.
"The Zulus pushing right up to the point, it was not untill the bainet was freely used that they flinched the least bit. Had the Zulus taken the bainet as freely as they took the bullets we could not have stood more than fifteen minutes. They pushed on right up to us and not only got up to the largur, but got in with us, but they seemed to have a great dread of the bainet which stood to us from beginning to end"
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Post by dan25 on Nov 10, 2015 8:53:07 GMT -6
Phil and Jodak,
Thank you both for that information.
Phil, Was there a particular reason for staining the helmets? I always thought the English Army was a stickler toward their dress code, always by the book especially in that time period.
Jodak, I agree about the bayonet, they both feared and respected any edged weapon. Their respect was a man fought as a warrior with the bayonet.
Have either of you read anything about the Zulu slitting the stomach open to release the spirit if you fought bravely and earned their respect?
Regards dan25
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Post by jodak on Nov 10, 2015 17:11:08 GMT -6
Dan, the Zulus did in fact make a practice of slitting the stomachs of those they had killed, and it was, as you state, in order to allow the spirit (of sorts) to escape. However, it was not to honor the vanquished. Instead, the Zulus believed that evil spirits inhabited everyone's bodies, and, if not allowed to escape, these spirits would transfer themselves to the person that had killed their host. This belief was based upon the way that the stomachs of the dead would swell from decomposition gasses, which the Zulus attributed to these spirits fighting to escape. The Zulus therefore aided them in this, so that they would not incur the spirits' wrath and become the new host. As a further part of the process they believed that, in order to cleanse themselves after killing an opponent, they had to have sex with someone not their wife before returning home.
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phil
New Member
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Post by phil on Nov 11, 2015 8:02:40 GMT -6
Phil and Jodak, Thank you both for that information. Phil, Was there a particular reason for staining the helmets? I always thought the English Army was a stickler toward their dress code, always by the book especially in that time period. Jodak, I agree about the bayonet, they both feared and respected any edged weapon. Their respect was a man fought as a warrior with the bayonet. Have either of you read anything about the Zulu slitting the stomach open to release the spirit if you fought bravely and earned their respect? Regards dan25 Hi Dan,
The helmets were stained because sheer white helmets with shiny regimental badges were just too conspicuous on active service.
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Post by dan25 on Nov 11, 2015 9:30:12 GMT -6
Dan, the Zulus did in fact make a practice of slitting the stomachs of those they had killed, and it was, as you state, in order to allow the spirit (of sorts) to escape. However, it was not to honor the vanquished. Instead, the Zulus believed that evil spirits inhabited everyone's bodies, and, if not allowed to escape, these spirits would transfer themselves to the person that had killed their host. This belief was based upon the way that the stomachs of the dead would swell from decomposition gasses, which the Zulus attributed to these spirits fighting to escape. The Zulus therefore aided them in this, so that they would not incur the spirits' wrath and become the new host. As a further part of the process they believed that, in order to cleanse themselves after killing an opponent, they had to have sex with someone not their wife before returning home. jodak, Thank you for that incredible information. I read some where about the slitting of the stomach but it didn't explain why, so I just assumed if they respected you they would release the spirit, and if you weren't worthy they allowed it to die inside you. As for the cleansing before returning home, that sounds like you would want to kill some one every day. Kidding of coarse. You and Phil are very knowledgeable, I wish I had learned more but I never knew anyone else that was interested in the Zulu War so I never got in-depth. Regards dan25
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Post by dan25 on Nov 11, 2015 9:33:09 GMT -6
Phil and Jodak, Thank you both for that information. Phil, Was there a particular reason for staining the helmets? I always thought the English Army was a stickler toward their dress code, always by the book especially in that time period. Jodak, I agree about the bayonet, they both feared and respected any edged weapon. Their respect was a man fought as a warrior with the bayonet. Have either of you read anything about the Zulu slitting the stomach open to release the spirit if you fought bravely and earned their respect? Regards dan25 Hi Dan,
The helmets were stained because sheer white helmets with shiny regimental badges were just too conspicuous on active service. Hi Phil, Thank you, it makes sense. I would suspect being white they must have been hard to keep clean also. It was just hard to believe at first, being a strict and formidable army even in battle they seemed to have wanted the appearance of being on parade. As for conspicuous, what about those bright red jackets, and the white cross belts, cartridge box's and accouterment's? Regards dan25
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Post by jodak on Nov 11, 2015 18:01:29 GMT -6
Dan, if you would like to learn more about the Zulus and the Zulu war, I would suggest the book The Washing of the Spears. It is considered to be the definitive work on the subject, and besides, there are not the multitude of books and conflicting interpretations as with the LBH anyway. This book would do nicely to inform you of anything that you might want to know, and I just checked and it is available on Amazon for about $18.
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Post by dan25 on Nov 11, 2015 20:03:09 GMT -6
Dan, if you would like to learn more about the Zulus and the Zulu war, I would suggest the book The Washing of the Spears. It is considered to be the definitive work on the subject, and besides, there are not the multitude of books and conflicting interpretations as with the LBH anyway. This book would do nicely to inform you of anything that you might want to know, and I just checked and it is available on Amazon for about $18. jodak, Thanks again for the info. I will order the book, it sounds like just what I need. I am quite sure I will still be asking you some questions. Regards dan25
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phil
New Member
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Post by phil on Nov 12, 2015 7:40:21 GMT -6
Hi Dan,
To give a more detailed answer the 1/24th helped put down the Xhosa uprising in South Africa in 1878. During this campaign they noticed that their Helmets and White equipment belts made them easier targets for Xhosa snipers, as a consequence they dyed their equipment. Soldiers on campaign did not look as smart as is commonly portrayed in war movies such as Zulu, due to the harsh practicalities of overseas service life.
One book that I can heartily recommend is Ian Knight's Zulu Rising. Ian Knight is one of the foremost historians studying the Anglo-Zulu war. Zulu Rising which is available on Amazon is his magnum opus. Over 600 pages encompassing more than 30 years of research. It covers the political climate at the time, leading to the invasion of Zululand and culminating with the battles of Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift. It also goes into extensive detail with respect to the personalities of those involved, Zulu society, life, traditions and rituals. By far my favourite book on the subject.
Regards Phil
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Post by dan25 on Nov 12, 2015 7:58:37 GMT -6
Phil, Thanks for the info and the advice. I have your book and jodak's book on my list to get right after the holidays.
Regards dan25
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