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Post by dan25 on Oct 23, 2015 19:05:14 GMT -6
Dan25, I think that resembles more of what Magpie was describing than leap frogging "Bounding Over watch" It more closely resembles a side of the British Square which was very effective. But I think of it as more of a purely defensive tactic rather than one used to disengage from the enemy. You know more than I about it, can this tactic be used to disengage or advance? Be Well Dan (The other Dan) Hi Dan, I posted the two line firing because someone mentioned not firing if men were in front of you. What I described was line infantry shoulder to shoulder two ranks deep. There were times when dismounted cavalry were used in skirmish lines. When necessary companies of infantry were sent forward to form skirmish lines. They would form just as mounted cavalry would when dismounted several yards apart. To advance line infantry would simply march forward by companies as other companies gave covering fire. To move to the rear the same was done. In skirmish lines number 1 men would hold their position while number 2 men fell back, then number 2 men fell back past number 1s while number 1s gave cover fire. I attended very few re-enactment's where our front wasn't at least 3 companies across, most were a battalion across. CW battalion's were 4 to 5 companies not 2 to 3 like after the war. A real CW company consisted of nearly 100 men, in re-enacting they would form units that showed up into at least 40 to 50 men for a company. In the real war they did some strange things on the battle field when maneuvering, just look at the casualties. Every thing was done by the book. I can't remember at this moment the company that actually stopped while crossing the battle field to dress it's ranks during Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. I mean the real charge. When the men came out of the woods to assemble for picket's charge, they formed their companies into battalions then battalions into regiments dressing ranks as to go to a parade while they were under long range artillery fire. There were casualties even before the command to march was given. I actually read copies of three letters sent home from survivor's of the last ranks in Armistead's Brigade, they actually said they had to put their arms up to protect their faces because they were getting hit with body parts and accouterments. Read some of Maryland's newspaper accounts when Lee invaded in 62, regarding the appearance of the army and how many were actually barefoot. Those times were absolutely nothing like we know or have ever experienced. That's why it's really helpful when studying 1876 to try to have an understanding and a mind set for that period of time. Regards dan25
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Post by benteen on Oct 23, 2015 19:45:09 GMT -6
Hi Dan, I posted the two line firing because someone mentioned not firing if men were in front of you. What I described was line infantry shoulder to shoulder two ranks deep. There were times when dismounted cavalry were used in skirmish lines. When necessary companies of infantry were sent forward to form skirmish lines. They would form just as mounted cavalry would when dismounted several yards apart. To advance line infantry would simply march forward by companies as other companies gave covering fire. To move to the rear the same was done. In skirmish lines number 1 men would hold their position while number 2 men fell back, then number 2 men fell back past number 1s while number 1s gave cover fire. I attended very few re-enactment's where our front wasn't at least 3 companies across, most were a battalion across. CW battalion's were 4 to 5 companies not 2 to 3 like after the war. A real CW company consisted of nearly 100 men, in re-enacting they would form units that showed up into at least 40 to 50 men for a company. In the real war they did some strange things on the battle field when maneuvering, just look at the casualties. Every thing was done by the book. I can't remember at this moment the company that actually stopped while crossing the battle field to dress it's ranks during Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. I mean the real charge. When the men came out of the woods to assemble for picket's charge, they formed their companies into battalions then battalions into regiments dressing ranks as to go to a parade while they were under long range artillery fire. There were casualties even before the command to march was given. I actually read copies of three letters sent home from survivor's of the last ranks in Armistead's Brigade, they actually said they had to put their arms up to protect their faces because they were getting hit with body parts and accouterments. Read some of Maryland's newspaper accounts when Lee invaded in 62, regarding the appearance of the army and how many were actually barefoot. Those times were absolutely nothing like we know or have ever experienced. That's why it's really helpful when studying 1876 to try to have an understanding and a mind set for that period of time. Regards dan25 Dan25, Very informative post Dan, thank you. Glad to have you aboard. Be Well Dan
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Post by dan25 on Oct 24, 2015 12:00:54 GMT -6
It's been a good many years since I re-enacted so most of my drill manuals are still hidden some where, I am still looking for them. I did find one that might be helpful to answer some questions.
It explains how to move back as skirmisher's. It's listed under the RETREAT SECTION.
Cavalry Skirmish Drill—Poinsett’s Cavalry Tactics
(for Dismounted Cavalry action by company)
The captain should form the platoon into line of battle at the rear of the ground he wants to deploy on.
NOTE: This means the men could march to the position in column of fours or twos and then form two ranks. (“Front into Line”, “On Right into Line” or "Left into Line" could be used depending on how the march brought them onto the ground. This will get them into two ranks or a battle line.) The first sergeant would have had them count off (by fours) back in camp and everyone will know their number and place in the formation. There is a #1, 2 & 3 of both the front and rear rank and each number works with their partner of the same number while the #4 man holds the horses of the other three. (in dismounted work without horses you should still count fours and use your 4th man as a skirmisher - but the diagrams here are men who have just dismounted from their horses - thus only numbers 1, 2 & 3)
The captain and bugler move to the rear of the men and the captain commands:
1. Six files from right - as skirmishers. (waits for sergeant) 2. MARCH. 3. Guide right. RESERVES: At command (#1), the file-closer (sergeant) moves up in front of the six files of the left and takes charge of the reserve. The captain waits for the sergeant to take his place in front of the reserves, and then the officer continues with MARCH. RESERVES: At exactly the same time as the captain commands MARCH, the sergeant of the reserve commands HALT to the reserves. The reserves are at carry and not order arms throughout the exercise. The six files of the right (12 men) march forward; after going 10 paces or 30 feet, they disperse as skirmishers.
The #1 right trooper obliques to the right, the #3 left trooper to the left. The troopers of the rear rank come up as soon as possible, abreast of the front rank as it opens intervals, each one placing himself on the left of his file leader.
As soon as the skirmishers are in line they take the position of advance— CARBINE and continue to march on the oblique until the bugle signals forward or the captain gives the command. The men then move forward and adjust their intervals.
The captain will be able to see from the rear how the spacing of intervals is working. By the book the intervals should be 5 paces or 15 feet but in battle that distance is subjective, just so the intervals are uniform and you cover the ground needed.
The skirmishers should be kept from 100 to 150 paces from the reserve (300 to 450 ft).
The bugle signal No. 2 or the command HALT should be given when the skirmishers reach the limit of their distance from the reserves. OR, the sergeant commanding the reserves should move the reserves forward to keep the distance correct if so ordered by the captain. NOTE: During skirmishing in the presence of the enemy, the men can seek cover on their line of march. The officer can command them to lie down as well if its dangerous work. The troopers keep regulating themselves toward the guide during the whole time they act as skirmishers.
The junior officer or NCO places himself in rear of the skirmishers, in order to superintend their individual movements and help organize the men if enemy fire should cause them to falter.
The captain followed by his bugler would be half-way between the skirmishers and the reserve and move along the line wherever he thinks his presence will do the most good. From his position he can direct the action, moving to the right, to the left, to the left about, to the right about, halt, forward, etc., by bugle preferably or by voice if need be.
When the enemy is met, the command is: Fire by File, Commence FIRE! which is given by the captain. The men should fire from the side of the guide (usually left). After the initial fire by file has gone down the line every file partner supports his file mate. One man fires after the other is loaded and vice versa—always having one man loaded. Fire by File allows the men to chose their targets and keep up a rate of fire commiserate with what is available to shoot at. If the enemy retreats or is no longer active and visible, the fire will be light. The captain can call cease fire at this time and move the men forward or whatever would be best for the situation depending on his orders from higher up.
If the captain wants the skirmishers to move forward he has the bugler sound forward, No. 1, each skirmisher moves forward, regulating his movements by those of the guide and preserving his space or interval. The reserve follows them, keeping its proper distance.
To move the skirmishers towards the right, to the right, No. 4, is sounded; each trooper turns to the right, taking care to preserve his distance. The reserve also turns to the right.
To move the skirmishers toward the left, to the left, No. 3, is sounded; each trooper turns to the left. The reserve also turns to the left.
If the commander wishes the skirmishers to move toward the opposite side, he orders, the about, No. 5, to be sounded: the skirmishers and the reserve turn to their rear. Its important to realize that in this movement the men must keep their weapons on the side of the enemy and this will tell them what direction to make the turn in. For instance, if the troops are moving to the left and are ordered about, they would turn to the right-about. If they are moving to the right, they would turn to the left-about.
During the flank movements, if the troopers are to continue firing, they leave the column and face to the enemy for that purpose. As soon as they have fired, they resume their places in the column by doubling their speed and load their weapons.
RETREAT
The skirmishers are marching to the front or at a halt and the captain wants the men to move to the rear, he will order the retreat to be sounded. At this bugle signal, the troopers of the front rank move forward 5 steps, fire, then turn to the left-about in order to move to the rear (turning their back to the enemy) while they load their weapons.
When they have marched a sufficient distance the captain has the bugler sound the about, No. 5. At this signal, the troopers, who have loaded their weapons, face to the front by turning to the right-about.
The troopers who were left on the front line fire and turn to the left-about, retire while loading their weapons, pass in the intervals of the line and their file partner and continue to move to the rear. They face to the front at the signal, the about, No 5.
The troopers of the new front line move 5 steps forward the moment the troopers who retire pass by them. These skirmishers then chose an enemy target and commence fire. The alternate movement of the two lines continues as long as skirmishers move to the rear.
When the captain wishes the retreat to cease he orders forward, No. 1, to be sounded. The skirmishers who are marching to the rear move up at speed, abreast of those the most advanced, and all march forward together until the signal, to halt, No. 2, is sounded.
If the captain wishes the whole line of skirmishers to retire at once, he orders the about, No. 5 and not retreat, to be sounded. (Yes, soldiers turned their back on the enemy!)
The reserve retires and faces to the front during any retreating movement the skirmishers employ. They regulate their movements by that of the skirmishers, so as to remain about 150 feet from the skirmishers closest rank. It executes its rear movement at the moment the retreating line passes into the intervals of the line which moves forward.
RALLY
The rallying of skirmishers is always made on the point occupied by the captain.
To rally the skirmishers, the captain places himself in front of the reserve, and has the bugler sound the rally, No. 6. At this signal the skirmishers turn-about, rally on the reserve by the shortest route and in the formation it originally started out in - line of battle.
If the commanding officer is not with the reserve when the rally, No. 6, is sounded, the skirmishers rally upon him, and the reserve comes up and joins them. The troopers must rally upon any point whatever the line.
TO RELIEVE SKIRMISHERS
To relieve skirmishers, the captain calls upon the reserve:
1. Six files from left - as skirmishers. 2. MARCH. 3. Guide right.
At the command MARCH, the reserve disperses and moves up upon the line of old skirmishers. The right trooper of the front rank passes on the right of the right skirmisher of the front rank; the right trooper of the rear rank on the right of the right skirmisher of the rear rank, and so on throughout, each one passing to the right of the one he relieves, and 5 paces beyond him. The original skirmishers turn-about and rally at speed on the officer, who, during the movement, is placed at the point where the six files, now become the reserve, should reform.
The non-commissioned officer who commanded the six files of the left, now takes command of the six files of the right.
Hope this help's.
Regards dan25
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Post by fred on Oct 24, 2015 17:28:09 GMT -6
Fort William Henry and the site where the massacre took place is only about 120 miles from me. That's funny.... It's about 180 miles from me. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by magpie on Oct 24, 2015 19:45:44 GMT -6
It's been a good many years since I re-enacted so most of my drill manuals are still hidden some where, I am still looking for them. I did find one that might be helpful to answer some questions. It explains how to move back as skirmisher's. It's listed under the RETREAT SECTION. Cavalry Skirmish Drill—Poinsett’s Cavalry Tactics (for Dismounted Cavalry action by comp. First thank you for all that dictation. I believe I was reading an edition of the above specifically for breach loaders. I tried to find my way back to it but couldn't. Hardee's Tactics of 1860 describe the kneeling firing of every other skirmisher., but in Hardee's two lines pass one another. In trying to find these period tactical books I noticed that various editions make small changes. There is an 1873 English analysis of French, German and Austrian movements that goes into an excellent discussion of the advantages and problems with tiny adjustments to the arrangements. That book very briefly mentions German experiments with "Bounding over watch" that they tried and returned to other. It's interesting in that several problems were mentioned: 1.) reserves naturally want to move up into the skirmish line and it's hard to prevent unless you widely separate; 2.) Losses (stray bullets and probabley presenting a massed target to the enemy while the skirmishers are disburst) were often higher in rear units than those on the skirmish line; 3.) Improvements in weapons were favoring a disbursed line of skirmishes (most Rebs in the CW where in that arrangement) etc. The later book really gives you an idea how small changes in arms can rapidly force a major change in tactics. Piled too high and too deep for me things are definitely different than what many have assumed. Anybody know what manual the 7th was using if any? I know William complained West Point was still teaching Napoleonic tactics. They (7th) strike me as winging it most of the time and I don't see the complex movements proposed but if someone can direct me to the smoking guns I'd be happy to change my view. Though I do believe they may have tried to keep a reserve and perhaps E company was a reserve and when the lines at the South Skirmish line and Last Stand Hill collapsed they didn't advance to fill the voids but were shocked and awed and ran down the Deep. I think every thing South of those lines was cut down from behind as they retreated. Just too many Indian drawings showing same.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 25, 2015 9:52:01 GMT -6
Fort William Henry and the site where the massacre took place is only about 120 miles from me. That's funny.... It's about 180 miles from me. Best wishes, Fred. Fred, Were almost neighbor's. I assume you have visited the Lake George and Lake Champlain area, a lot of history. Regards dan25 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by magpie 14 hours ago dan25 Avatar 21 hours ago dan25 said: It's been a good many years since I re-enacted so most of my drill manuals are still hidden some where, I am still looking for them. I did find one that might be helpful to answer some questions. It explains how to move back as skirmisher's. It's listed under the RETREAT SECTION. Cavalry Skirmish Drill—Poinsett’s Cavalry Tactics (for Dismounted Cavalry action by comp. First thank you for all that dictation. I believe I was reading an edition of the above specifically for breach loaders. I tried to find my way back to it but couldn't. Hardee's Tactics of 1860 describe the kneeling firing of every other skirmisher., but in Hardee's two lines pass one another. In trying to find these period tactical books I noticed that various editions make small changes. There is an 1873 English analysis of French, German and Austrian movements that goes into an excellent discussion of the advantages and problems with tiny adjustments to the arrangements. That book very briefly mentions German experiments with "Bounding over watch" that they tried and returned to other. It's interesting in that several problems were mentioned: 1.) reserves naturally want to move up into the skirmish line and it's hard to prevent unless you widely separate; 2.) Losses (stray bullets and probabley presenting a massed target to the enemy while the skirmishers are disburst) were often higher in rear units than those on the skirmish line; 3.) Improvements in weapons were favoring a disbursed line of skirmishes (most Rebs in the CW where in that arrangement) etc. The later book really gives you an idea how small changes in arms can rapidly force a major change in tactics. Piled too high and too deep for me things are definitely different than what many have assumed. Anybody know what manual the 7th was using if any? I know William complained West Point was still teaching Napoleonic tactics. They (7th) strike me as winging it most of the time and I don't see the complex movements proposed but if someone can direct me to the smoking guns I'd be happy to change my view. Though I do believe they may have tried to keep a reserve and perhaps E company was a reserve and when the lines at the South Skirmish line and Last Stand Hill collapsed they didn't advance to fill the voids but were shocked and awed and ran down the Deep. I think every thing South of those lines was cut down from behind as they retreated. Just too many Indian drawings showing same. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MP, You mention Hardees Tactics Manual, introduced in 1855 for the Union Army, it was writen for infantry I don't believe it was for cavalry. When Hardee went with the south a new manual was introduced in 1861 by Major William Gilham, then another in 1862 by Gen. Silas Casey. Again I believe all were for infantry. The one I posted for cavalry is the only one I have been able to find so far. Regards dan25
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Post by magpie on Oct 25, 2015 11:05:26 GMT -6
Yes Dan25 your right. Every time I tried to search on Google (books mostly) I come up with different results. There is a quote by Upton I can paraphrase from memory. "From the late war (cw) we've learned that many times a cavalry man will have to become an artillary man, a infantryman a cavalryman and always a cavalryman an infantryman so the consensus is we should attempt to combine the knowledge of each and make tactics common." {a crude paraphrase of Upton}. So along those lines being only able to find a few: I read some of the infantry as I found them and the Cavalry man had become a mounted infantryman anyway.
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Post by montrose on Oct 25, 2015 11:25:40 GMT -6
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Post by dan25 on Oct 25, 2015 12:49:00 GMT -6
Montrose, With zero training for the officers, how much training did the enlisted men get? I haven't been able to find any info on that. I think we all remember being taught to shoot at some time in our life. With out proper training your not going to hit what your aiming at standing or kneeling, your just sending lead down range. And aiming while mounted with the horse moving would be even more difficult even with any kind of training. Curious about their training. Regards dan25
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Post by dan25 on Oct 25, 2015 13:14:00 GMT -6
Dan25, Very informative post Dan, thank you. Glad to have you aboard. Be Well Dan Dan, Sorry I'am a little late in thanking you for your kind post. I try to contribute what ever and when ever I can. I am very glad to be a part of this forum. Regards dan25
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Post by fred on Oct 25, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -6
Were almost neighbor's. I assume you have visited the Lake George and Lake Champlain area, a lot of history. Years ago, Dan. Right now we live in Pleasantville, down in Westchester County, but we are trying to bomb my wife's mother out of this house and move up-state, probably somewhere in Columbia County: the Hudson-Claveracvk-Hillsdale-Great Barrington line. I used to live in Pawling and my wife and I love that neck of the woods, so we'll see. A village, a small house, and some beautiful scenery is all we require. Once that is done-- hopefully by spring-- we will be getting in the car, heading north, west, and east for rides. George and Champlain are areas we want to go to again. Saratoga as well. Wish us luck. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 25, 2015 15:06:24 GMT -6
Fred, That's incredible, I live in Lagrange right down the road from Pawling off Rte 55. I certainly do wish you luck. Hopefully we will run into each other one of these day's. If you travel north on the Taconic Parkway when you go over Rte 55 in Lagrange I'am 4 miles away.
Best wishes dan25
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 25, 2015 18:04:36 GMT -6
dan25, Have not been on the Taconic since 1970, that and Route 7 north out of Lee Mass. are both 2 of the most scenic drives I have ever seen, east of the Mississippi. I worked in Cornwall, south of Newberg 2 Summers.
Regards, Tom
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Post by magpie on Oct 25, 2015 18:34:55 GMT -6
Montrose, With zero training for the officers, how much training did the enlisted men get? I haven't been able to find any info on that. I think we all remember being taught to shoot at some time in our life. With out proper training your not going to hit what your aiming at standing or kneeling, your just sending lead down range. And aiming while mounted with the horse moving would be even more difficult even with any kind of training. Curious about their training. Regards dan25 Yes bad training. I just read in an Upton infantry manual 10 rounds allowed per year for 0-600 yards and 5 rounds for 800 yards per year. Cartridges were expensive. My one year of ROTC we had M-16's that fired 22 rounds to save the Army dollar. I already knew how to shoot having probably gone through at least 1,000 22 rounds (remember those Milk cartons full of 1,000 rounds for less than $10) and probably through a couple of thousand BB's and maybe 100 pellets (cost too much) and maybe 50 high quality targets (they were expensive too) in my childhood. I also went through a Police Athletics League (P.A.L.) training to graduate as a promarksman (not a big deal just basic). I think it is hard for most of us to conceive how bad a shot you would be back in the 1800's unless you were well to do and could afford the ammunition. There is the other tactical theory of many in Europe that they didn't want you to aim anyway cause it slowed firing rates. Actually that was what I was being taught in the late 70's. They just wanted crossing fire lanes not aiming. The cross preventing any open lane for an enemy to approach.
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Post by wild on Oct 25, 2015 18:45:34 GMT -6
Didn't the defenders at Rorkes Drift do something similar in reverse, ie, done as an offensive maneuver. Saw it in the 1964 film "Zulu" but not sure of the historical accuracy. Looked good but just codology. The defenders had the Martini-henry rifle....rate of fire 12 rounds a minute ,effective range 400yrds and as the zulu had no firearms to speak of such tactics were not required. Cheers
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