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Post by fred on Oct 2, 2015 12:04:42 GMT -6
Do you know if the bodies of Custers men were ever recorded where they were actually found after the battle? If so, would you please tell me where I can find that information. Yeah!
In my book!! Appendix C. Also, there is a series of maps that show you where each man died... and all the bogus markers have been eliminated, so there is no overage. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 2, 2015 12:52:05 GMT -6
You are the man. Thanks again Fred
Can't wait till your book arrives
Best Wishes dan25
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Post by Beth on Oct 3, 2015 12:15:10 GMT -6
Boston had, as Edgerly states, stayed back with the pack train then rode out and wasn't with the everybody when Reno and Custer separated. How did Boston know that Reno was in the valley and Custer was on the bluffs? No one from Benteen couldn't have told him because they didn't know. At some point Boston had to decide which trail to follow and he went up towards the bluff.
You have Martini and Boston meeting in the Reno Hill area which means that Martini couldn't have told Boston that needed to head up. Also Martini only told Boston that his brother was ahead, not where Reno was so Boston still possibly has no idea that that Custer and Reno have separated.
Could it be at all possible that Boston didn't even know that Reno was in the valley so he didn't ride close enough to the bluff to take a look? I don't see him going up Weir Point as an option because he was in a hurry to join the rest. Can the timber location even been seen from Weir Point?
While googling this morning I ran across a couple sites that Boston was on a mule. One was from what I consider an unreliable source and the other probably just echoed the information however is there some other account that has Boston on a mule that either website might have gotten the misinformation?
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Post by fred on Oct 3, 2015 13:04:42 GMT -6
Believe me, Beth, Boston was not on a mule. Just more hogwash from clowns with no clue.
Custer's column was bigger than Reno's so that may have something to do with Boston's decision. The trails would have diverged around the east side of "Middle Knoll," the large shod trail following the larger tepee trail. That is what I would have followed... and probably what Boston figured as well.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 3, 2015 15:49:01 GMT -6
Fred, Have you ever heard anything regarding Custer watching Reno fighting on "Reno Hill"? When I read this, I just had to post it for you. The original website is below so you can see the photo's. Photograph: Museum of New Mexico Scouts When photographer Edward S. Curtis visited the Little Bighorn Battlefield in 1907, three of the Crow Indians who served as scouts for Colonel Custer accompanied him (above). In all, six Crow scouts had guided the Seventh Cavalry to the Little Bighorn River. Two of them, White Swan and Half Yellow Face, went into battle with Major Marcus A. Reno when he crossed the river and attacked the Indian village on the western side. The other four were with Custer’s battalion until shortly before he engaged the Sioux and Cheyenne on the eastern side. One of them, Curley, became well known after the battle. Word spread that he was the only survivor of Custer’s ill-fated command, a claim he never actually made, and he was photographed and interviewed repeatedly. Curley’s fellow Custer scouts—White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Moccasin—received scant attention until Curtis invited them to show him around the field and tell him about the battle. The three scouts’ narrative differed sharply from the accepted story, most markedly in their assertion that Custer had paused for 45 minutes on a high point on the bluffs, where he watched Reno’s defeat and declined to go to the major’s aid. Troubled by this account, Curtis consulted with President Theodore Roosevelt, who advised him not to print it. Curtis agreed and published instead a vague description of the fight, a confusingly marked map, and a few photographs, attracting little attention. For the rest of his life, Curtis quietly continued to believe that Custer had witnessed the rout of Reno’s troops and done nothing. His original manuscript describing the scouts’ story was entrusted to his son, with instructions to eventually donate it to a museum. The Smithsonian Institution received the Curtis papers in 1988. A short time later, a group of previously unknown Curtis glass-plate negatives surfaced. This photo was made from one of those. Here White Man Runs Him, mounted in the central foreground, along with Goes Ahead (standing) and Hairy Moccasin (mounted on the right), pose looking in the direction where the Indian village, site of Reno’s valley fight, had been. Few if any scholars of the battle accept the story of Custer’s idle wait, but this photograph, taken on the northern hump of the western side of Weir Point, is the historical document that most accurately tells us where the three Crow scouts said it took place. - See more at: bcm.bc.edu/issues/summer_2006/endnotes/custers-field.html#sthash.IZUIO31K.dpufregards dan25
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Post by fred on Oct 3, 2015 16:15:31 GMT -6
Fred, Have you ever heard anything regarding Custer watching Reno fighting on "Reno Hill"? Dan, Yes, I have heard of this before. In fact, I believe the "History Channel" or one from that group had a one-hour thing on the Edward Curtis-Crow scout business. In my opinion it is a lot of hogwash. Dan, this is why I am so insistent upon finding the times for each individual event. If you have the time events occurred it counteracts these ridiculous claims and fairy tales. Curley never went anywhere near the Custer fight and never even got as far as Weir Point. Anything north of 3,411 involving Curley is sheer nonsense. And the proof of it all is other than the stories attributed to Curley-- mostly contrived by white men-- there is absolutely no substantiation. The only three Crow scouts with anything to say-- and it is difficult to wade through their bullshit-- are Hairy Moccasin, Goes Ahead, and White Man Runs Him. If you plot their adventures from place to place, then stack those things up against the various troop movements, you can make out where and when they were at some given point. Think about this, though... Custer was supposed-- according to this tale-- to sit back for 45 minutes and watch Reno. Then, a little later, he was supposed to have sat on or near Cemetery Ridge for another 30 minutes. Where the hell are we getting all this time? Yet other clowns claim Reno spent only 10 minutes fighting in the valley and only 10 more minutes in the timber. What happened to the other 25 minutes? How do you get 40 men almost a mile away on foot, then that same mile back, all in 10 minutes? So all these whacky times people fling around are ridiculous. The fact of the matter remains... unless someone can prove me wrong with new evidence... the three Crow scouts, without Curley, watched Boyer leave Weir Point and re-join Custer in Cedar Coulee, then they moved north as far as Boyer's Bluff, where they popped off some rounds and watched as Custer reached Luce Ridge. They also saw Keogh unleash his volley or volleys-- some of which may have inadvertently been aimed at them-- and then they traveled back, eventually rejoining some Rees and Reno's command on Reno Hill. Custer, meanwhile, was continuing north. And Curley, along with one or two Rees, directed Benteen toward Reno Hill. And that's it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 3, 2015 16:39:18 GMT -6
Fred, I never heard of it before and didn't know if it had any truth to it. I thought if any one would know you would.
regards dan25
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Post by Beth on Oct 4, 2015 10:40:14 GMT -6
Believe me, Beth, Boston was not on a mule. Just more hogwash from clowns with no clue. Custer's column was bigger than Reno's so that may have something to do with Boston's decision. The trails would have diverged around the east side of "Middle Knoll," the large shod trail following the larger tepee trail. That is what I would have followed... and probably what Boston figured as well. Best wishes, Fred. If he was following the larger trail, wouldn't that take him away from the bluff edge? Or am I mistaken that only a small part those with Custer traveled along the bluff and the rest were further away?
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Oct 4, 2015 14:04:04 GMT -6
Totally accurate or not, those are great maps.
Custer IMHO expected Benteen to come on. He didn't know that Reno had retreated out of the valley and was digging in on Reno's Hill. If he had known that Reno had "charged" out of the valley I wonder if Custer would have said to himself, "Benteen will reinforce Reno. I guess that Benteen won't be coming on after all. Maybe I had better retrace my steps. Does that sound like GAC?
I think even if Custer had known that Reno was in trouble he would have kept going north and would have kept trying to cross the LBH with the goal of keeping the NA's from scattering. Purely subjective on my part. I know that.
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Post by wild on Oct 4, 2015 16:13:41 GMT -6
Hi Shaw I agree with you ; Custer was never going to retreat.He had blundered and nothing would have got him to fall back on Benteen of all people. I think the Custer clan may have supported him in this. Cheers
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Post by fred on Oct 5, 2015 8:12:22 GMT -6
If he was following the larger trail, wouldn't that take him away from the bluff edge? Or am I mistaken that only a small part those with Custer traveled along the bluff and the rest were further away? I discuss this in the book. Martini claimed-- and the maps will bear this out-- the command moved farther inland as they mounted the hills, while Custer himself rode much closer to the bluffs. The going was much easier a little more to the right. I am sure, once beyond North Fork, Boston simply followed the wide, shod trail. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Oct 5, 2015 8:13:26 GMT -6
Custer IMHO expected Benteen to come on. He didn't know that Reno had retreated out of the valley and was digging in on Reno's Hill. If he had known that Reno had "charged" out of the valley I wonder if Custer would have said to himself, "Benteen will reinforce Reno. I guess that Benteen won't be coming on after all. Maybe I had better retrace my steps. Does that sound like GAC? I think even if Custer had known that Reno was in trouble he would have kept going north and would have kept trying to cross the LBH with the goal of keeping the NA's from scattering. Purely subjective on my part. I know that. Shaw, Really good post. I agree, 100% Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 5, 2015 11:48:30 GMT -6
I purchased 4 books on the Indians account of the battle.
There are so many that claim that some soldiers not only acted drunk, but fought like they were drunk, firing into the air, firing into the ground but not firing at the Indians.
Some Indians said when they went to scalp the soldier he smelt of whiskey.
Some said when they were looting, they checked the cans the soldiers carried, (meaning canteens) they had whiskey in them and all was nearly empty.
If this is true, and I repeat, ( if ) it is true, it would explain why some soldiers put up such a good fight and others where over run so quickly.
Does anyone have any information, or comments on this?
dan25
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Post by edavids on Oct 5, 2015 13:43:48 GMT -6
I purchased 4 books on the Indians account of the battle. There are so many that claim that some soldiers not only acted drunk, but fought like they were drunk, firing into the air, firing into the ground but not firing at the Indians. Some Indians said when they went to scalp the soldier he smelt of whiskey. Some said when they were looting, they checked the cans the soldiers carried, (meaning canteens) they had whiskey in them and all was nearly empty. If this is true, and I repeat, ( if ) it is true, it would explain why some soldiers put up such a good fight and others where over run so quickly. Does anyone have any information, or comments on this? dan25 Hi Dan: As per usual; most of what I have to say is conjecture with a hint of common sense thrown in (I hope). I recall reading the same but don't recall where or the legitimacy of the sources. Without anything else to go by, my questions would be: - Would NA's be able to identify "acting drunk"?
- Would they really know what whiskey smelled like?
- Would the troopers who allegedly filled their canteens with whisky really be that foolish to not have their canteens filled with water on a nearly 100 degree day complete with choking dust, being bone-tired from riding, etc.?
Hopefully you will find answers in the 4 books you just purchased. Of course, if many troopers really were drunk this would squelch the argument of Reno being a "drunk coward" because a big chunk of the regiment could be accused of the same. Again, strictly conjecture from a newbie who does not have an extensive library or cross-reference materials. I will now leave the better answers to our colleagues who can provide you with more concrete info.
Best,
David
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Post by dan25 on Oct 5, 2015 14:12:02 GMT -6
David, Thank you for the response. I agree with you, it doesn't make any sense yet so many Indians made those statements I thought there might be some truth to it.
I did forget to mention the reference to whiskey was not for any of Reno's troops, but for those near or by Custer. We'll see what others have to say about it.
dan25
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