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Post by dan25 on Oct 1, 2015 9:29:51 GMT -6
I am with the understanding that several people believe that Custer was expecting Benteen to arrive as his reinforcement. What if Custer was told of Reno's predicament in the valley, wouldn't Custer realize that Benteen would not be coming, that Benteen would in fact go to the aide of Reno?
I don't think anyone has considered the one person that could have brought news to Custer that Benteen was on the trail heading north, and that Reno was in serious trouble in the timber line. That person was Custer's brother, Boston Custer.
I have read in two seperate places that Boston Custer was originally assigned to the packtrain, but he decided to leave the packtrain and join his brother G.A. Custer. Boston headed north on the same trail that Custer had taken, and not long after leaving the packtrain he passed Benteen who also was on the trail and heading north.
(After reading this, I realized that Boston would eventually have to also pass John Martin who would be heading south to find Benteen. Boston not knowing where his brother (custer) had went to, would sensibly stop Martin and ask.
I then tried to find evidence to verify this theory, and I did. I found John Martin's 1st interview. Martin clearly states that he heard Reno fighting down in the valley as he passed by. He also states that he did meet Boston Custer. It is also fair to assume that they exchanged other information. I then checked Reno's Court of Inquiry, to see if it appeared there, it does not. But I read a logical explanation why it didn't, and it made sense.)
(He did not tell this at the Reno court of inquiry because he was not asked the question. He thinks that in Reno court of inquiry it was not desired that he should tell all he knew and said that afterward he never was invited by officers to discuss what he knew of the battle and never volunteered to do so.) Back to Boston Custer. After Boston left Martin and continued north, when he reached the area where Martin had heard Reno fighting, he to would have heard it. There was nothing going on to the north or the south that would have distracted his hearing. I really believe that out of shear curiosity he may have tried to actually see what was going on down below with Reno.
In any event when Boston finally reached Custer there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't have told him every thing he knew, seen or heard. Custer had to realize that out of mere common sense Benteen would go to the aide of Reno and not continue north to join him. This information and reality had to have had an influence on his decisions.
I realize that some of this is theory, and some is fact.
dan25
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Post by wild on Oct 1, 2015 12:13:16 GMT -6
Boston would have viewed Reno's engagement from a distance of over a mile. He did not know Reno's orders so between distance and ignorance he would probably not have appreaciated Reno's situation. So I don't think he had anything to add to what Custer already knew. I don't think Custer knew Benteen was not coming ; in my estimation Custer was dead very shortly after he ventured down MTC .But he would have been very surprised in his heavenly billet to learn that Benteen had disregarded his orders and thrown in his lot with Reno. Strange how Benteen did not give him a message for George. Cheers
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Post by wild on Oct 1, 2015 12:19:12 GMT -6
Custer had to realize that out of mere common sense Benteen would go to the aide of Reno and not continue north to join him. Boston reached Custer 15 minutes after he [Custer] had dispatched Martin to Benteen. What had happened in that 15 minutes to make him think his orders were obsolete ? Cheers
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Post by fred on Oct 1, 2015 12:28:15 GMT -6
I don't think anyone has considered the one person that could have brought news to Custer that Benteen was on the trail heading north, and that Reno was in serious trouble in the timber line. That person was Custer's brother, Boston Custer. I have read in two seperate places that Boston Custer was originally assigned to the packtrain, but he decided to leave the packtrain and join his brother G.A. Custer. Boston headed north on the same trail that Custer had taken, and not long after leaving the packtrain he passed Benteen who also was on the trail and heading north. (After reading this, I realized that Boston would eventually have to also pass John Martin who would be heading south to find Benteen. Boston not knowing where his brother (custer) had went to, would sensibly stop Martin and ask. I then tried to find evidence to verify this theory, and I did. I found John Martin's 1st interview. Martin clearly states that he heard Reno fighting down in the valley as he passed by. He also states that he did meet Boston Custer. It is also fair to assume that they exchanged other information. I then checked Reno's Court of Inquiry, to see if it appeared there, it does not. But I read a logical explanation why it didn't, and it made sense.) (He did not tell this at the Reno court of inquiry because he was not asked the question. He thinks that in Reno court of inquiry it was not desired that he should tell all he knew and said that afterward he never was invited by officers to discuss what he knew of the battle and never volunteered to do so.) Back to Boston Custer. After Boston left Martin and continued north, when he reached the area where Martin had heard Reno fighting, he to would have heard it. There was nothing going on to the north or the south that would have distracted his hearing. I really believe that out of shear curiosity he may have tried to actually see what was going on down below with Reno. In any event when Boston finally reached Custer there is no reason to believe that he wouldn't have told him every thing he knew, seen or heard. Custer had to realize that out of mere common sense Benteen would go to the aide of Reno and not continue north to join him. This information and reality had to have had an influence on his decisions. Dan, I cover this rather extensively in my book. And the timelines fit beautifully. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Oct 1, 2015 12:33:57 GMT -6
Dan, There are a lot of assumptions that have to be made with regard to Boston Custer. It is probable, but not confirmed, that Boston saw Reno engaged with the Indians. It is also a big assumption that he would have seen Reno at a time when things were going badly and that he would have comprehended that Reno had been whipped. It is also an assumption that Boston and Martini spoke at length about what was going on. Martini informed Benteen the Indians were skedaddling, which indicates he thought the army was winning and all was well, so that would imply anything he told Boston would also indicate things going well.
The last big assumption is that Boston would have told Custer that Reno had been whipped, which would imply Benteen would probably not arrive at Custer's location. At most, Boston could have told Custer he encountered Benteen, from which Custer could deduce that Benteen had left his scout and was on his way toward Custer, assuming that Martini reached Benteen. This last assumption is fairly safe since we know Boston and Martini met before Reno left the timber and probably around the time Custer was at MTC or had just left northward. However, there is no way Boston could have told Custer that Reno had left the valley and moved up the bluffs, in the path of Benteen. He wasn't there to see that. He had already moved beyond that point.
I believe the most information Boston could have relayed was that he met Martini who was on the way to Benteen, that he had encountered Benteen who was no longer on the scout, and that he had seen Reno fighting in the valley. It is very unlikely he told Custer that Reno had been beaten. With all of this, it is very likely Custer would have still believed Reno to be fighting in the valley, and that Benteen would have received the note from Martini and would therefore be coming in his direction. Custer's actions after Boston arrived would tend to support this hypothesis.
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Post by wild on Oct 1, 2015 15:14:59 GMT -6
My Google earth would indicate that Custer did not have to wait till 3411/Weir Point to check out Reno's progress;he could see into the valley from nigh on the get/go. And if his hurrah to the troops "of we have caught them napping" is to be believed then he intended some offensive action with immediate effect . Cheers Might be a reason to have sent Kanipe back for the packs and then as he sees the situation deteriorate he sends Martin back to Benteen with the packs mentioned twice in the dispatch. Cheers
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Post by dan25 on Oct 1, 2015 15:47:44 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I know I am new and have a lot to learn. Most of my last post was assumptions, but can anyone show proof that they didn't happen?
I have read many assumptions here, I was just throwing mine into the pot with the others.
Wild, (Boston would have viewed Reno's engagement from a distance of over a mile)
As for the distance of over a mile, there still is a possibility that Boston was curious enough to ride close enough to try and see what was going on with Reno down in the valley. He wasn't being chased, and he wasn't carrying a message, so he had plenty of time to find out.
(Boston reached Custer 15 minutes after he [Custer] had dispatched Martin to Benteen. What had happened in that 15 minutes to make him think his orders were obsolete ? Cheers) If Boston had seen Reno's unit not attacking the village but cornered in the woods, would Custer actually think Benteen would just ride by and wave to Reno, or do the proper thing and assist him? Which means Custer would realize that Benteen would be tied up with Reno. It has nothing to do with orders being obsolete.
As for Boston telling Custer that Reno was whipped, I think there is big difference between being whipped (as in done or wiped out) versus Reno being in trouble and needs help. dan25
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Post by benteen on Oct 1, 2015 15:52:17 GMT -6
My Google earth would indicate that Custer did not have to wait till 3411/Weir Point to check out Reno's progress;he could see into the valley from nigh on the get/go. And if his hurrah to the troops "of we have caught them napping" is to be believed then he intended some offensive action with immediate effect . Cheers Might be a reason to have sent Kanipe back for the packs and then as he sees the situation deteriorate he sends Martin back to Benteen with the packs mentioned twice in the dispatch. Cheers Hi Richard, I dont believe Knipe was a messanger (Not looking for a debate) but under the premise that he was. Knipe said Tom not George Custer sent him. But if Custer felt the situation was deteriorating why would he send another message about bringing packs. I would think it more likely that knowing Tom had already sent a message for the packs, he wouldnt even mention them. It would be " Reno in trouble, needs support, get here ASAP". Just a thought. Be Well Dan
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Post by Beth on Oct 1, 2015 15:57:58 GMT -6
My Google earth would indicate that Custer did not have to wait till 3411/Weir Point to check out Reno's progress;he could see into the valley from nigh on the get/go. And if his hurrah to the troops "of we have caught them napping" is to be believed then he intended some offensive action with immediate effect . Cheers Might be a reason to have sent Kanipe back for the packs and then as he sees the situation deteriorate he sends Martin back to Benteen with the packs mentioned twice in the dispatch. Cheers Wild have you ever been to the battlefield? Because it is my understanding that the line of sights might be as clear as you think they are. Also perhaps defining where 'nigh on the get/go' is in your scenario would help. I suspect all of us might define the get/go as different places.
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Post by fred on Oct 1, 2015 16:07:17 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I know I am new and have a lot to learn. Most of my last post was assumptions, but can anyone show proof that they didn't happen? OK, my boy!! You asked for it... but it would be a lot simpler if you had my damn book... The timing doesn't work out that way. Unless you use crazy fast speeds, Boston would not have reached 3,411 until the beginning of Reno's retreat. All the timing in this regard fits perfectly: the meeting of Benteen's column at the morass the meeting of Martini; and the beginning of Reno's retreat. "Beginning" is very, very important, because that is what Boston would be telling his brother. The distance is irrelevant: he could easily see into the valley; I've done it dozens of times: you wouldn't even have to stop. And the noise and dust would have made it imperative Boston would have to look and see what the heck was happening. Correct. Wrong. Martini was dispatched at 2:02 PM; Boston reached his brothers on Luce Ridge (it could not be anywhere else unless you use those "crazy fast" times I mentioned) at 2:42, forty minutes after Martini departed the column with the note. The timing here is such that Boston would have only seen the very beginning of the retreat. That means he would not have seen the craziness, the mayhem, and the assumption-- valid-- would be Reno would be pulling back along his route of advance. No one would have expected that retreat route to have been cut off, least of all Custer. We even have a former general; an Indian; and a private soldier alluding to the same thing: you pull back the way you came. Reno couldn't because he was forced toward the river, something the Indians probably fully intended to do. That inserted Reno between Custer and an advancing Benteen. Part of the craziness here is Benteen's route. Stupid Martini never directed Benteen toward Custer and it was only the fortuitous intervention of Curley and a couple of Rees that directed Benteen toward Custer's trail and up the bluffs. That meant for Benteen to advance to Custer he would first have to deal with Reno's situation. And it is the latter that Boston reported to George. I hope this helps. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 1, 2015 16:15:45 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks for the help. When you say it would help if I had your book, how do I get it?
dan25
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Post by fred on Oct 1, 2015 16:27:20 GMT -6
Dan, Direct from the publisher… www.mcfarlandbooks.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-7954-2… or from Amazon… www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Frederic+C.+Wagner+IIIAnd if you buy it, thanks. A word of warning, however, and I probably should not be saying this, but.... The other book, Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn, has been sold out, so if Amazon has it, it is fairly rare because it will not be re-printed in that format. The publisher-- a marvelous little privately-owned company in North Carolina, has decided to do a 2nd edition that will contain new data on the 7th Cavalry members-- thanks to a Brit named Peter Russell who has made some good contributions-- and it will also contain the names of more than 6,500 Indians who were or could have been at the fight. That should be published within the next month or so. Best wishes, Fred
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Post by dave on Oct 1, 2015 16:30:09 GMT -6
Just a quick question. Would Boston, a civilian, have had a clue whata was going on with Reno in the valley/timber? Could he have provided GAC any useful information if he did see George? Regards Dave
Dan I highly recommend Fred's book but be sure to get the paper book not an e book. You will need to go back and forth from maps, text and time lines and may even underline parts. Go to Amazon.com Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Oct 1, 2015 17:00:17 GMT -6
I have both versions of Fred's book because I find it easier to read text on an ebook so I can enlarge the print. I will say both the book and kindle versions have advantages and disadvantages. The tables on both are printed in tiny fonts. In the kindle version the tables do not enlarge but the maps do so I find it easier to look at the maps on my tablet. Often when I really have to consult a table though I use the kindle reader on my laptop which allows me to get it into a size I can read easiest. And yes there are times if I am really trying to compare things I have my book, e-reader, a tablet and computer all open to different tables and maps.
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Post by fred on Oct 1, 2015 17:09:32 GMT -6
Would Boston, a civilian, have had a clue whata was going on with Reno in the valley/timber? Could he have provided GAC any useful information if he did see George? Oh, I would think so, wouldn't you? I would think as he galloped by, he would catch glimpses of the valley-- despite the rising dust-- and get a good idea of the mayhem going on down there. That is why I believe Custer had an idea Reno was in some trouble, but had no clue of the extent. I do not believe George Custer had any idea of what he had done until very close to the end. Best wishes, Fred.
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