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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 7:04:07 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 7:04:07 GMT -6
Tom Can you prove that Custer knew for a fact that Benteen had received the message from Martini and was on his way? It's like sending a registered letter, until you get that confirmation that the message has been received, there is no way you can prove it has been delivered. Good point. Custer has to remain on the offensive.Benteen is his ace in the hole.He must go for the Benteen option.If he is to get a favourable result he must hold his position . And we do know that the message did get through . But the majority view holds that Benteen acted correctly in halting. And the majority view also holds that Custer acted correctly . That is the conundrum. CheersI think the distances for the total morning March is very roughly 17 miles (+/- 3) and it's taken the pack train 6 hours (+/- 2). So its moving 3 miles an hour or less. So Custer decides to advance aprox. 3 more miles from handing Martini the order with the caveat for Martini to return if he can. Custer passes Ford B leaving a whole hell of a lot of enemy in his rear between him and resupply. There is just too much disorder here. It's not the fog of battle it's ludicrous. The model is nonsense.
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 7:14:01 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 8, 2015 7:14:01 GMT -6
Now that we are here, might as well discuss Ford D. Fred states Custer went there with every intention to eventually cross, moderator on other board states that Custer was looking for good ground to fight on and some have stated there was no sojourn to Ford D. Where do people stand on this and why? Fred-hope I represented you properly. Best David Count me in on Ford Ds. AZ Ranger
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 9:12:36 GMT -6
Post by fred on Oct 8, 2015 9:12:36 GMT -6
A pro Custer writer made the claim his low class rank had to do with demerits and not academics. People will justify and rationalize away everything imaginable for their heroes. That does not make it true. And it certainly ain't history!!!!Best wishes, Fred.
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 9:23:26 GMT -6
Post by fred on Oct 8, 2015 9:23:26 GMT -6
As usual, I am a day late and a dollar short, so here is what I have to say about Ford D.
Custer went to the river to recon a crossing. When he decided Ford D was the place, he pulled back to Cemetery Ridge to await the rest of his command. He intended to attack across that ford. The horse manure of him looking for a place to "defend"-- wherever it comes from!!!-- is exactly that: horse manure. Whoever claims that has no clue of tactics; no idea of the existing situation confronting Custer; and no clue of what was going on. It is just another dumb theory with absolutely no support whatsoever.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 9:38:32 GMT -6
Post by wild on Oct 8, 2015 9:38:32 GMT -6
Magpie
There is just too much disorder here. It's not the fog of battle it's ludicrous. The model is nonsense You mean the Ford D model is nonsense? Cheers
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Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 11:40:28 GMT -6
Magpie There is just too much disorder here. It's not the fog of battle it's ludicrous. The model is nonsense You mean the Ford D model is nonsense? Cheers I think so. Ford D is so far: 1.) you abandon Reno to his fate 2.) you are now 2 hours from linking with your pack train. Do you expect the Indians will stand still? So you plan to ford under heavy fire without Scouts and with mounted warriors counter attacking? 3.) you expect Benteen and the mule packs to cross a Medicine Tail kill zone unassisted? 4.) At best you drive the Indians into the Big Horns violating your cammanding officers (terry) intent to the fullest. 5.) I guess the force against Reno can break for lunch, take a shower, clean their weapons, curry comb their horses and still have time to meet you at Ford D. Model is ludicrous, pure nonsense unless you can overcome my objections in a meaningful way.
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Post by benteen on Oct 8, 2015 13:00:11 GMT -6
I think so. Ford D is so far: 1.) you abandon Reno to his fate 2.) you are now 2 hours from linking with your pack train. Do you expect the Indians will stand still? So you plan to ford under heavy fire without Scouts and with mounted warriors counter attacking? 3.) you expect Benteen and the mule packs to cross a Medicine Tail kill zone unassisted? 4.) At best you drive the Indians into the Big Horns violating your cammanding officers (terry) intent to the fullest. 5.) I guess the force against Reno can break for lunch, take a shower, clean their weapons, curry comb their horses and still have time to meet you at Ford D. Model is ludicrous, pure nonsense unless you can overcome my objections in a meaningful way. Magpie, I agree with all 5 of your statements. However, that doesnt mean that Custer planning to attack at ford D is nonsense. I say this because of the following, Think of who you are dealing with, George A. Custer. In my opinion Custer didnt care about Terry, the mission, and certainly not his men. Custer cared about Custer. This would be the last big Indian fight and it was to be his victory and his alone. The only way he could achieve this was to attack, so I believe despite all the logical reasons you listed, Custer was going to do just that..Attack Be Well Dan
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 13:13:08 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 13:13:08 GMT -6
I would have to review all Indian accounts of the positions of all camps, and noncombatants which were never fixed. Try to figure out the center of that body and rationalize if I strike at Ford D will I hit the head or the shoulder of that body and turn it to the West or South West a direction that was forbidden to me. If I just want to show my aggression why not meet the pack train and Benteen half way at Medicine Tail and go ahead and attack at Ford B in their flank which has a chance of driving the body of Indians North as my commanding officer requested. My attack will also be 1 hour earlier on the clock and giving the Indians less time to react and adapt. I will also prevent my pack train from being cut to pieces crossing Medicine Tail.
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 13:21:14 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Oct 8, 2015 13:21:14 GMT -6
I wonder if any of his school records survived. Rarely is anyone dealt all the cards in life. He obviously was a good writer but those kinds of skills often don't include Math, spatial relationships and oddly music. The math and spatial relationship is not everything but if your estimating things it becomes critical. A pro Custer writer made the claim his low class rank had to do with demerits and not academics I believe they might. I know that the record of his demerits is out there and yes he received a huge number. He would accumulate close to the max number of demerit for a grading period but once he had nearly maxed out would buckle down and be a good student. It seems Custer had a problem following rules but understood in the end one needed to in order to succeed. I have read one place were Custer said that there were only two locations that mattered in a WP class, the top and the bottom and he knew that he would never be the top so perhaps if that is true the demerits/buckle down cycle was intentional The music, math and spatial thinking isn't odd a--it's actually well studied--briefly it has to do with math and music involve a lot of similar thinking skills like recognizing patterns.
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 16:50:36 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 16:50:36 GMT -6
One should read Sergeant Windolph's description of Custer moving from offensive to defensive operations flawlessly in the Yellowstone campaign 2 years before: He is his own recon patrol and leads the chase on a band of Indians. Custer quickly figures out they are faking retreat and drawing him into heavy cover. Custer wheels his horse around and goes back and halts his troops. Custer Inc. now see's 250 Indians march out of the cover (timber) in better order than the US Army. Custer pulls his troops back to where there is a stream on two sides ( two tributaries? an oxbow?) and bridges them with a skirmish line. The situation is so desperate he goes to 6 horses to a holder and moves the horses to the rear in the Timber. The Indians advance and the soldiers get lucky and bring down a chief, a standard bearer (pole with feathers) goes to the chief he is hit. Two more Indians try to help their fallen commander and are hit. Custer spots an Indian back by the horses wheels and leads a counter attack. later they find the tracks of 40 Indians that were moving to take the horses. Is Windolph full of it or do we have a different Custer at LBH ?
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Ford D
Oct 8, 2015 18:23:41 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Oct 8, 2015 18:23:41 GMT -6
One should read Sergeant Windolph's description of Custer moving from offensive to defensive operations flawlessly in the Yellowstone campaign 2 years before: He is his own recon patrol and leads the chase on a band of Indians. Custer quickly figures out they are faking retreat and drawing him into heavy cover. Custer wheels his horse around and goes back and halts his troops. Custer Inc. now see's 250 Indians march out of the cover (timber) in better order than the US Army. Custer pulls his troops back to where there is a stream on two sides ( two tributaries? an oxbow?) and bridges them with a skirmish line. The situation is so desperate he goes to 6 horses to a holder and moves the horses to the rear in the Timber. The Indians advance and the soldiers get lucky and bring down a chief, a standard bearer (pole with feathers) goes to the chief he is hit. Two more Indians try to help their fallen commander and are hit. Custer spots an Indian back by the horses wheels and leads a counter attack. later they find the tracks of 40 Indians that were moving to take the horses. Is Windolph full of it or do we have a different Custer at LBH ? I'm not sure who's message that was, but I can't claim credit. Custer could have been a very different man between the two campaigns. Custer's testimony in the Belknap Hearings/Trading Post scandal nearly cost him his regiment and he had to basically beg himself back on and even then there were conditions. I suspect Custer knew that he had to make a good showing. Also there may be some evidence that he was thinking about his life after the military with a possible lecture tour or even politics.
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Ford D
Oct 9, 2015 6:58:37 GMT -6
Post by magpie on Oct 9, 2015 6:58:37 GMT -6
I was actually trying to quote the information I had posted else where about what Windolph (a self professed Benteen man, not a custer fan) wrote about Custer rapidly changing from offense to a box defense when confronted with 250 warriors 2 years before LBH. Windolph a witness of that action, is telling us that Custer was all over the situation and was not rigid or narrowly focused and that he could switch from "I've got you" to "Oh #$%& you got me" and make the necessary troop movements in minutes.
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Ford D
Oct 9, 2015 7:51:43 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 9, 2015 7:51:43 GMT -6
Custer can do all he wants expecting for Benteen arrive but just like Bus B, he can't guarantee that the bus will ever make it. If a commander only acted where he was guarenteed success he would not leave his billet . In the case of Benteen, Custer placed a Battalion to cover Benteen's expected approach.
Richard
I don't see the covering effect that you suggest. Just how far would Benteen with packs (your choice) have to move outside of the supportive fire of Keogh's location. I think all of the mules would be shot or run off before the reached MTC. There are two many parallel drainages for the Indians to use for cover and concealment. Just look at what Weir observed as compared to Edgerly and the resulting recall of the company. If one company can't make it why would two more and pack mules be expected to make it?
Keogh might have been placed at a rallying point but he could not provide cover for the majority of the terrain that would have to crossed by Benteen and packs to get within supportive distance.
One reason that I can think of to cross MTC was to take advantage of the travel corridor that parallel MTC. On the Weir Point side of MTC the drainages run more perpendicular to MTC.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 9, 2015 8:08:32 GMT -6
Fred I understand your reasoning regarding the dark board. You have a reputation, achieved by diligent research, scholarship and integrity, that you would not want besmirched by "laying down with fibbers." Whereas I have no standing and little respect except that of myself, family and friends. Lies, distortions and half truths can not affect me so I continue to post. I suspect it causes some discomfort when the "loyal masses" occasionally drift toward the truth. The "Big bugs" want the little nits to follow the trail not drift away. Regards Dave Dave As long as the moderator feels free to edit posts it would never stand. One time I had saved one of my post because my computer acted up and the moderator edited it. I asked him why and he could not answer. The only thing he changed was the addition of a period. The school teacher in him I guess. Other editing modifications change the content and context and should not be tolerated. As a member of the LBHA I find this editing a disgrace upon the organization to allow it to continue. Regards Steve
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Ford D
Oct 9, 2015 8:39:47 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 9, 2015 8:39:47 GMT -6
I think if you made the decision to move from Reno Creek in the direction that Custer took it makes sense to move toward ford Ds. We know thanks to Fred that the travel corridor of the current roadway has be been modified but it still the main route that a formation of mounted troops would take that parallels the river. Looking at the fords before Ds they all drop into narrow drainages and the village and trees are on the other side . The D fords on the other side of the cemetery area give a staging area before crossing and it also places the troops at the end of the villages.
I don't think it takes long on a horse to move along battle ridge and toward the park entrance. Another road area filled in is the current entrance. It was a wide open Crazy Horse drainage in 1876. The older entrance road enters close to the current housing and there is a picture of the Kellogg marker along that road. What is interesting to me is there is a line on the Benteen map showing a trail across the current cemetery area and in the general direction of the Ford Ds area. It would be interesting to see if it lines up with the old entrance road and therefore a travel corridor in 1876.
One of the great times we had last year was when Tom, Pat, and myself sat at a table in the housing looking at the Ford Ds area.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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