2015

[tubman13]

Steve might still be there, I arrived home this afternoon.

Regards,
Tom

[Beth]

Is it too early to ask for pictures?

[Yan Taylor]

Tom: Did you see or find anything that made you view the battle(s) differently? I can look at loads of images and footage played on youtube but nothing would compare with standing on these locations and getting a first hand sense or feel for the place.
I bet you returned a wiser man.
Ian.

[tubman13]

Beth/Ian
I am not a picture taker. Steve took a few. I think I may have posted earlier that the lone tepee was further from the LBH river than I thought. The morass, which I viewed last year and this, no way Benteen's troops could have watered in mass. Weir had to be 1st in 1st out.

Local told us most people go to the wrong "Crows Nest", I think he is right. Custer would have been able to see everything he needed much closer to his trail. The scouts, especially the Crows knew where to go.

Tullock's would not be great for ingress or egress. It would be a great route for Girard to contact Terry with update, probably unmolested.

Ford D easy access to CH ravine.

Only picture I took of worth was sent to Chuck last week. It regarded a blocking location. From this location, a short distance from Ford A Custer could have viewed the whole valley and Last Stand Hill. Which would not have been LSH if Custer had used Chuck's concept.

WO's harping about recon and scouting bares so much merit. If scouts had been out at proper distances they would have crossed the trail CH used the week before and known it was that of a war party. If scouts had been at proper distance covering 180 dregrees they would have found Crooks battlefield on the 24th.

[tubman13]

For those of you who did not get Steve's Pasoli recipe previously, get it. Steve prepared it for the group last week, it was #1.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

So Tom, what you are saying I think is that there was no aura of this thing being numbered among the preordained events of history.

With care, patience, reconnaissance, adequate preparation of the battle space, and a more thoughtful disposal of forces available much better, if not decisive, outcomes could have been achieved, the but for being only the Custer factor, and all that factor entails beginning with actions not taken long before leaving home station.

For your efforts I may this week add the Tom Tubman memorial C130 to my growing, well I have three now, model aircraft collection, and have fond thoughts of crabs, corn on the cob, slice tomatoes, and my favorite Bristol (have to stay loyal to the home folks hereabouts you know)

[Beth]

Jun 29, 2015 11:37:34 GMT -5 tubman13 said:

Beth/Ian
I am not a picture taker. Steve took a few. I think I may have posted earlier that the lone tepee was further from the LBH river than I thought. The morass, which I viewed last year and this, no way Benteen's troops could have watered in mass. Weir had to be 1st in 1st out.

Local told us most people go to the wrong "Crows Nest", I think he is right. Custer would have been able to see everything he needed much closer to his trail. The scouts, especially the Crows knew where to go.

Tullock's would not be great for ingress or egress. It would be a great route for Girard to contact Terry with update, probably unmolested.

Ford D easy access to CH ravine.

Only picture I took of worth was sent to Chuck last week. It regarded a blocking location. From this location, a short distance from Ford A Custer could have viewed the whole valley and Last Stand Hill. Which would not have been LSH if Custer had used Chuck's concept.

WO's harping about recon and scouting bares so much merit. If scouts had been out at proper distances they would have crossed the trail CH used the week before and known it was that of a war party. If scouts had been at proper distance covering 180 dregrees they would have found Crooks battlefield on the 24th.

Cool information!  LBH is like a poster child for should of, would of, could of.   The more I read the more I wonder if Custer was considered the best then how bad was the military then.  

It would be easy to think that perhaps he just had a bad day but lately I've been reading his history from the end of the war on and he had a lot of bad days and poor decisions but somehow just gets his fingers slapped.  He must have been very charming in real life.

Beth

[quincannon]

I wonder aloud - Who considered Custer the best???

Charming is a word I have never associated with Custer. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't

All these guys felt they owed one another, having all be through the same grinder, the ACW. That attitude was prevalent then, and has been prevalent in the aftermath of all the Nation's wars. After WWII and just before Korea, FECOM was an old boys club of hasbeens and neverweres, both types well past their sell dates, that cost us greatly during the period July to October 1950, at the cost of not 270 odd lives, but thousands upon thousands. You can bet your last red cent that it continues today.

[Beth]

Jun 29, 2015 17:40:09 GMT -5 quincannon said:

I wonder aloud - Who considered Custer the best???

Charming is a word I have never associated with Custer. Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't

All these guys felt they owed one another, having all be through the same grinder, the ACW. That attitude was prevalent then, and has been prevalent in the aftermath of all the Nation's wars. After WWII and just before Korea, FECOM was an old boys club of hasbeens and neverweres, both types well past their sell dates, that cost us greatly during the period July to October 1950, at the cost of not 270 odd lives, but thousands upon thousands. You can bet your last red cent that it continues today.

It was my impression that the public thought Custer was the best Indian fighter--of course a lot of that opinion comes from Custer's PR team (He had nothing on the Kardashians).

As for charming--Custer seems to be the type of person who never left people neutral about him, they either adored him or despised him.  Though reading about his time in Texas I wonder how much of his hospitality was because they liked him and how much was just good personal policy towards the commander of the occupying army.

[tubman13]

Chuck/Beth,

Thank you both for the kind words. My statements above are nothing more than educated opinion. I am not a War College grad. I guess what I am saying is there were other options available to the 7th and its commander. Those options, would/should have been, at the very least considered, but without the proper intelligence they were not.

And yes, Beth, Custer had at least one bad engagement on the way to Appomattox(Namozine Church/Sweathouse Creek)but managed to retreat before he suffered serious damage. Oddly enough this is where Tom Custer got his 1st MOH, at the opening of the action. Courts Martial a bad year. Lack of intelligence at Washita, could have been a disaster. Custer was daring, brave, and some say reckless. The 1st two are dead on, I don't feel #3 is so. Certainly he pushed the limits during the war, but he had strong back up and he knew it. I guess you could say no balls no blue chips. In June 1876 he rolled snake eyes, due in large part to his lack of attention to detail. Reckless? You decide. Custer will always have his detractors, as well as supporters. My only assertion is that his loss, that day, can not be hung on his subordinates.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Lack of attention to detail is in itself reckless.

Good commanders share two things in common. They all make the very hard look all too easy, and they all pay great attention to detail, without the fact being all that obvious.

Beth: The opinion of the public matters very little when you and your unit is being shot over. Decisive action not manufactured pop culture bullshit is all that matters.

[montrose]

Beth,

Custer's reputation as an Indian fighter was due to relentless fabricated propaganda, ...written by Custer and his political allies.

I have linked articles before showing the widespread and systemic lies of Custer. One example out of hundreds. In 1867 Custer's spare horse fell out. A soldier stayed with the animal. A detail was sent back to recover the horse. They were hit by a massive Indian force. The survivors fled back to Custer. There were 2 missing. Custer decided to abandon his own soldiers and continue on his personal business. A very brave Infantry officer decided the hell with Custer, he went on his own to look for his fellow soldiers. He managed to save one.

In later writings Custer slandered these men, saying they were deserters who deserved to die. He claimed both were dead, since otherwise it proves he was unfit to serve as an officer at any rank. The problem with the Custer fanatics is that good, competent men died, because of someone who should never have been allowed to serve as an officer.

Respectfully,

William

[montrose]

Here is a thought.

The RCOI examined Reno's conduct at LBH and recommended no further action. It was what we call now an Article 32 investigation.

But Custer was tried and convicted by court martial for gross incompetence and gross negligence.

The Custer fanatics go to great lengths to imply that the RCOI convicted Reno and Benteen, which is a total fabrication. Yet the same fanatics go to elaborate and desperate lengths to ignore Custer's conviction.

The major challenge with LBH is that there is a serious percentage of folks who are fanatics. They are incapable of rational thought. They insert their own identity as human beings as justification for their non rational, emotional, and false views.

What drives me to rage with the lunatics is the obvious proposition. The more people who died because of Custer's incompetence, the more they feel this justifies their lunacy.

What if GAC had returned to Ash Creek after 3411? Total deaths would be a fraction of what occurred. Custer would be court martialed and kicked out of the Army for the incompetent valley attack. This battle would be a footnote in history.

[Deleted]

Jun 29, 2015 19:35:48 GMT -5 montrose said:

Here is a thought.

The RCOI examined Reno's conduct at LBH and recommended no further action. It was what we call now an Article 32 investigation.

But Custer was tried and convicted by court martial for gross incompetence and gross negligence.

The Custer fanatics go to great lengths to imply that the RCOI convicted Reno and Benteen, which is a total fabrication. Yet the same fanatics go to elaborate and desperate lengths to ignore Custer's conviction.

The major challenge with LBH is that there is a serious percentage of folks who are fanatics. They are incapable of rational thought. They insert their own identity as human beings as justification for their non rational, emotional, and false views.

What drives me to rage with the lunatics is the obvious proposition. The more people who died because of Custer's incompetence, the more they feel this justifies their lunacy.

What if GAC had returned to Ash Creek after 3411? Total deaths would be a fraction of what occurred. Custer would be court martialed and kicked out of the Army for the incompetent valley attack. This battle would be a footnote in history.

What you and your fellow fanatics fail to understand and recognize is the RCOI was a sham and a cover up by the military and politicos who wanted the whole embarrassment sweep under the carpet. What purpose would it have served to convict Reno of drunkeness and cowardly behavior, despite all the evidence? What purpose to convict Benteen of deliberately ignoring orders and failing to go to GAC? Nothing other than more shame and dishonor. Those that conducted the proceeding said as much after the fact when they apologized. To continue the cover up all these years later is the bigger joke. Not all that surprising though coming from ex-military. You guys were thought not to think independently; the military gave you your opinion. Sad really.

[Beth]

Jun 29, 2015 18:26:56 GMT -5 quincannon said:

Lack of attention to detail is in itself reckless.

Good commanders share two things in common. They all make the very hard look all too easy, and they all pay great attention to detail, without the fact being all that obvious.

Beth: The opinion of the public matters very little when you and your unit is being shot over. Decisive action not manufactured pop culture bullshit is all that matters.

To me, Custer's biggest fault at least during his time on the Plains were how careless he was with his men and horses.  You can't march people/horses to the point of collaspe time after time and then expect them to either remain loyal or be able to fight.

I do realize that public opinion is worthless in a foxhole but once the battle is done it can help gloss over a lot of sins in the public eye.  We love our heros and don't want them to be humans with foibles and faults.

Beth