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Post by magpie on Oct 6, 2015 17:49:56 GMT -6
Hi Tom: 5 is just a number close to the amount of detail one can handle but big enough to convey the important parts. I have to reread and reread Montroses some to get his position. 1.) I was kind of sold on Custer's intent for Benteen to sweep( drive Indians) out of rear areas ( to protect packs or baggage train by leaving no significant enemy in the rear) and to end up after leaving the Valley of Reno (Ash) Creek and going to the second Valley ( LBH) ending up left and behind Reno (2cnd Valley). No particular evidence other than the 3 poorly written orders given to Benteen and situational awareness. 2.) The 25 Tepees at the mouth of Ash (Reno) Creek I had never heard or seen. On a similar note I have often seen on these forums that the Ree Scouts were told by Custer to raid the pony herds. As the Ree's were suposed to pass in advance through Ash (Reno) Creek to the Indian herds seen on the hills above the Village. Just as an aside here once you see smoke rising above ________ in the wide open spaces you are unlikely to be two miles off in relocating it. Especially cowboys and Indians they know where the fire is and what's burning and maybe cooking from 5-15 miles away. I would maintain Custer and Scouts knew the location of the principal target ever since the Crows nest. Tullock Creek Argument I think is not essential to the fight. I have certainly read various positions as to GAC conforming to Orders as well as Hughes (?) wishy-washy writing style of the Orders. I am with you I'd like to choose my men based on tactical needs not seniority or trivial punishment but maybe Mc. was a better mule skinner??? That train not keeping up was a major contributor to the outcome. I have read and Fred confirmed Custer and the Army had a seniority system. Listen to Scouts and confirm yes. From what I have read of Custer he was one of the best at Recon. I don't think much of Girard (don't think he was doing his job) and Charley was sick. I am of the opinion Custer was gambling, not ignorant or stupid, but gambling he'd find another Village with warriors out of town (Washita). According to Martini GAC didn't see Reno engaged, There is not a shred of evidence that I have seen for the pivotal hill to be 3411 over Weir Peak. You alter the timing by moving hills. I believe Custer at a Gallop and Reno at a Trot would without the ditch arrive at the same time and 1/2 mile apart in a coordinated attack. To me the warrior filled "entrenchment" one mile South of the Village the major reason this attack failed. If you'd charged with 8 troops instead of 3 you could easily broken your Calvary in that ditch and lost it all there.
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Post by montrose on Oct 6, 2015 20:32:14 GMT -6
Magpie wrote, "To me the warrior filled "entrenchment" one mile South of the Village the major reason this attack failed. If you'd charged with 8 troops instead of 3 you could easily broken your Calvary in that ditch. Minus the ditch and with better communication Reno would have hit the Village at the same time as Custer and Benteen would have been behind Reno and to the left and the Indians would have been less inclined to Turn Reno's flank.
Essentially young unmounted Warriors were waiting in Reno's ditch and behind the bluffs on both sides of Medicine Tail's mouth all in ambush. The Indians presented the Village in a way they knew would excite Custer to attack (should change his name to squaw killer from morning star). The Indians were one to two steps ahead all the way beside superiority in numbers."
I hope you take no offense in my response.
1. The Otter Creek defense. The significance of the 'ditch' is not that it blocked the US direct approach to the village. It was on the flank of the US avenue of approach, a classic 'L" shaped ambush.
2. The Situation. There were 20ish Indians between the Reno element and the village. There was 30-50 in the Otter ditch on the US flank. These elements did not defeat the US.
900 Indians swept around the US force and were attacking from the south, with their right flank tied into the river shrubbery.
The liar board has a few thousand posts claiming that the 20 Indians between Reno and the village could not defeat the US task force. I can not argue this, since it is completely true.
But the lunatic board has no explanation of how to defeat the 900 Indians attacking from the Ford A avenue of approach. They do not because they can not.
3. Lunatics and Liars. The thelbha form is dominated by a few folks, with serious emotional and criminal issues. In my opinion, you have been exposed to the value laden and fact free arguments of that board.
You show an open mind. I would like to discuss your theories. But I would like a discussion based on fact, and empiricism. Not the emotional fanaticism that is the bread and butter of the thelbha board.
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Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 8:15:19 GMT -6
Magpie wrote, "To me the warrior filled "entrenchment" one mile South of the Village the major reason this attack failed. If you'd charged with 8 troops instead of 3 you could easily broken your Calvary in that ditch. Minus the ditch and with better communication Reno would have hit the Village at the same time as Custer and Benteen would have been behind Reno and to the left and the Indians would have been less inclined to Turn Reno's flank. Essentially young unmounted Warriors were waiting in Reno's ditch and behind the bluffs on both sides of Medicine Tail's mouth all in ambush. The Indians presented the Village in a way they knew would excite Custer to attack (should change his name to squaw killer from morning star). The Indians were one to two steps ahead all the way beside superiority in numbers." I hope you take no offense in my response. 1. The Otter Creek defense. The significance of the 'ditch' is not that it blocked the US direct approach to the village. It was on the flank of the US avenue of approach, a classic 'L" shaped ambush. 2. The Situation. There were 20ish Indians between the Reno element and the village. There was 30-50 in the Otter ditch on the US flank. These elements did not defeat the US. 900 Indians swept around the US force and were attacking from the south, with their right flank tied into the river shrubbery. The liar board has a few thousand posts claiming that the 20 Indians between Reno and the village could not defeat the US task force. I can not argue this, since it is completely true. But the lunatic board has no explanation of how to defeat the 900 Indians attacking from the Ford A avenue of approach. They do not because they can not. 3. Lunatics and Liars. The thelbha form is dominated by a few folks, with serious emotional and criminal issues. In my opinion, you have been exposed to the value laden and fact free arguments of that board. You show an open mind. I would like to discuss your theories. But I would like a discussion based on fact, and empiricism. Not the emotional fanaticism that is the bread and butter of the thelbha board. 1. Reno's ditch is just North of the Isiah Dorman marker and as I have no map to confirm "Otter" creek I have to make an assumption. It's more like a ditch than a creek. It seems a cut from the west side and east side (where the river is) of the bottoms (meadow). The axis of the ditch is almost exactly North/South. The axis of the River being roughly North East so the Ditch line is roughly 45 degrees from the river. The two water ways form a V with the point at the Timber where the glade was. I have located it on the basis of Maguire #1 centering on the bald land that is like a talus slope off from the cliffs, the essentially straight ridge line and the forest (I ignore the rivers undulating course as it is a moving and not a fixed landmark) lining those features up on the Google Earth I came straight down and hit the Isiah Dorman marker I then looked 200-400 yards down Valley and hit the ditch. I studied it, got some old RR map found it was on it and am satisfied. If we are agreed on our elements of terrain we can proceed. I believe you are saying because Reno followed the River axis of our V on down and the River combined with the cliffs is a barrier that the Ditch is then the short arm of the L ambush even though it's not the atypical typical perpendicular. My post game intel from young full blood Sioux scholar "Lyman" who wrote in the 1880's the ditch was filled with young warriors. You can find this in W.O. Taylor who kept Lyman's version and as Taylor was in the fight I believe he is indorsing Lyman. I add to that a citation I cannot remember where a chief tells the young warriors to take essentially infantry positions and "warriors to your horses" but they must go out and catch a horse or have one brought up thus delaying their entrance to the fight which was actually ideal as they were able to take advantage of any success by the tactics of the chiefs and young warriors (also could fill any deficite). I guess a highly mobile counter attack reserve force. Also another forgotten citation places Sitting Bull's son in command of the young warriors in the ditch. As your post game intel differs: can you provide citations for? Your Indian sweep is from where? Unfortunately US Army 1870 is using right and left without defining axis. Lyman says Reno unknowingly passed along our lines. Girard said Indians were firing (burning) the grass along the river banks as they charged along {laying smoke ?}. So your 900 Indians are where?? I perceive 200 Indians hidden along the river's timber skirt and no more because these guys are very imobile in that position and if the fight doesn't come to them I loose their power(support). I perceive the 300 young inexperienced warriors in the ditch with a couple of hundred mounted veteran Warriors on their way. According to Windolph only 1/2 the Indians were armed with firearms and I would guess the older richer Warriors had good firearms and horses. I am not sure how a V ambush play's out with archers. I read that friendly fire issues are what drives the perpendicular L ambush in modern tactics. If the Indians kept the river timber force in reserve they are 10 feet below the plane of the bottoms that the ditch Indians are firing across. As far as how many Indians between Ford A and Reno's ditch it's in a constant state of flux. I was hoping to fight the Custer sector but we can do this one first as it sets the stage for defeat and disaster and it's well documented and therefore becomes my model for the Custer sector.
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Post by jodak on Oct 7, 2015 8:50:59 GMT -6
Magpie,
As an adjunct to all of the info that you post and in your evaluation of the valley action, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the real time perception by Reno and others may have been considerably different from what post battle evaluation might reveal. For example, some point to the ditch/ravine as being a minor obstacle that could have been easily negotiated by cavalry had Reno maintained his charge, but Reno didn't know that at the time. From his perspective all he could see was some sort of depression that seemed to be full of Indians, and that was what his decision to stop the charge and dismount was predicated upon. That later examination revealed that the physical obstacle may not have been as significant or the Indians as numerous as Reno thought is irrelevant to his decision at the time. The same holds true for numerous other decision points where I think that we need to be careful and evaluate various decisions by different participants on the basis of what they knew or thought at the time rather than what 140 years of study and research might have revealed.
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Post by wild on Oct 7, 2015 8:52:10 GMT -6
Magpie . Lyman says Reno unknowingly passed along our lines. Girard said Indians were firing (burning) the grass along the river banks as they charged along {laying smoke ?}. So your 900 Indians are where?? I perceive 200 Indians hidden along the river's timber skirt and no more because these guys are very imobile in that position and if the fight doesn't come to them I loose their power(support). I perceive the 300 young inexperienced warriors in the ditch with a couple of hundred mounted veteran Warriors on their way. According to Windolph only 1/2 the Indians were armed with firearms and I would guess the older richer Warriors had good firearms and horses. I am not sure how a V ambush play's out with archers. I read that friendly fire issues are what drives the perpendicular L ambush in modern tactics. If the Indians kept the river timber force in reserve they are 10 feet below the plane of the bottoms that the ditch Indians are firing across Are you suggesting that the Indians were lying in ambush for Reno and had a complex system of defence awaiting his arrival? cheers
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Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 9:18:17 GMT -6
These Indians destroyed Fetterman's 88 in 1868. A young Crazy Horse was the bait in that action drawing Fetterman over the ridge and into the ambush. These Indians just forced Crooks force of 700- 1,000 to withdraw as Crook feared ambush if he moved further down the Rosebud. Before horses and the white man these Indians built L ambushes to run buffalo into corals or over cliffs. Typically a deer hunt involves figuring out which way the deer will run and placing shooters hidden near the kill zone then flusher's move way around and to the rear of the deer. They run hopefully and useually predictably to your Kill Zone. If I drop you out in the wild plains to live by wits alone how long will you last? If I put you in a coral with wild buffalo just how long do you think you'll last (side note buffalo were killing more people than grizzlies).
Anyway no offense intended but lets return to Montrose our teacher.
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Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 9:43:51 GMT -6
Magpie,
As an adjunct to all of the info that you post and in your evaluation of the valley action, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the real time perception by Reno and others may have been considerably different from what post battle evaluation might reveal. For example, some point to the ditch/ravine as being a minor obstacle that could have been easily negotiated by cavalry had Reno maintained his charge, but Reno didn't know that at the time. From his perspective all he could see was some sort of depression that seemed to be full of Indians, and that was what his decision to stop the charge and dismount was predicated upon. That later examination revealed that the physical obstacle may not have been as significant or the Indians as numerous as Reno thought is irrelevant to his decision at the time. The same holds true for numerous other decision points where I think that we need to be careful and evaluate various decisions by different participants on the basis of what they knew or thought at the time rather than what 140 years of study and research might have revealed. all good considerations: Unfortunately everyone at the time wanted to disbelieve the mythic hero Custer blew it and refused to release the scape goat Reno. So unless you can edify me as other wise I have only 4 reviews of the ditch: 1.) Reno's after action report; 2.) Reno's RCOI testimony; 3.) Lyman (soon to graduate from Yale and then tragically die); and 4.) Trooper Korn a ferrier (= experienced horseman) amazed his horse managed to jump it. Any more you may have would be greatly appreciated. So from these people we have a horse barrier. Montrose is telling us it's irellevant as it really is just the short arm of our L-ambush and one in which infalading fire is expected to decimate our forces. I think as a horse barrier it is relevant as if you don't stop as Reno testified it would be the charge of the Light Brigade when you hit it. All things in nature tend to randomness. It's a law. So you are examining this ditch 140 years later, I suspect and assume from your post. So Reno's dimensions are 10 yards across (just over the jumping ability of horses) and 3-4 yards deep. Ditch convey's the meaning of a rectangular cross section. 10 yards by 3 Yards such a large defect that unless the bottoms are sand this element will not disapear without a volcano, glacier, massive earth quake etc. Civil engineering wise you have something called an angle of repose and that means that your cuts perpendicular edges will eventually become a slope in real time not geologic. In short what you see today is more a v than what would have been there 140 years ago. It will continue to slope till you reach the angle of repose and then you can cantor over it. So lets return to our teacher Montrose and the fight.
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Post by wild on Oct 7, 2015 12:18:28 GMT -6
Anyway no offense intended but lets return to Montrose our teacher Of course and none taken Magpie. But an ambush requires prior knowledge of the enemy's intention and not even Custer's officers knew that . And having the wife and kids along does not a good ambush make. The general view is that the Indians were taken totally by surprise . Interesting to see what your tutor has to say about it . I don't imagine you will be giving out the pencils though. Cheers
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Post by magpie on Oct 7, 2015 13:42:21 GMT -6
Is that the fullest defense of your position? These Indians have no central government, no air raid siren and no police. Low dog said when the first runner came in he didn't believe but started getting ready, when the second runner came in he was ready. A Cheyenne warrior said he knew at 8 am and the boy that brought in the report successfully estimated the TOA of Custer to Ford B. One of the problems one author brought up was you couldn't keep warriors from going directly to a fight. In some cases certain warrior societies would guard the other warriors to prevent them from jumping the start line ( count coup, earn feathers and drive the babes wild ). So when the leaders knew and when the general alarm went out is different. Also think about it Sitting Bull saw it all in a dream 8 days before.
Wife is chattel, makes good bait and what choice do you have? And seriously they moved them West but left Tepees standing. Lyman said ambush, Chief Red Fox (crazy horses nephew) said ambush (both these individuals achieved literacy ). Indians are ambush hunters how would you expect they would respond? When choosing a place to camp soft ground and good drainage is a consideration the other is defense, especially in a warrior society.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 8, 2015 8:16:43 GMT -6
Magpie,
As an adjunct to all of the info that you post and in your evaluation of the valley action, I think that it is important to keep in mind that the real time perception by Reno and others may have been considerably different from what post battle evaluation might reveal. For example, some point to the ditch/ravine as being a minor obstacle that could have been easily negotiated by cavalry had Reno maintained his charge, but Reno didn't know that at the time. From his perspective all he could see was some sort of depression that seemed to be full of Indians, and that was what his decision to stop the charge and dismount was predicated upon. That later examination revealed that the physical obstacle may not have been as significant or the Indians as numerous as Reno thought is irrelevant to his decision at the time. The same holds true for numerous other decision points where I think that we need to be careful and evaluate various decisions by different participants on the basis of what they knew or thought at the time rather than what 140 years of study and research might have revealed. all good considerations: Unfortunately everyone at the time wanted to disbelieve the mythic hero Custer blew it and refused to release the scape goat Reno. So unless you can edify me as other wise I have only 4 reviews of the ditch: 1.) Reno's after action report; 2.) Reno's RCOI testimony; 3.) Lyman (soon to graduate from Yale and then tragically die); and 4.) Trooper Korn a ferrier (= experienced horseman) amazed his horse managed to jump it. Any more you may have would be greatly appreciated. So from these people we have a horse barrier. Montrose is telling us it's irellevant as it really is just the short arm of our L-ambush and one in which infalading fire is expected to decimate our forces. I think as a horse barrier it is relevant as if you don't stop as Reno testified it would be the charge of the Light Brigade when you hit it. All things in nature tend to randomness. It's a law. So you are examining this ditch 140 years later, I suspect and assume from your post. So Reno's dimensions are 10 yards across (just over the jumping ability of horses) and 3-4 yards deep. Ditch convey's the meaning of a rectangular cross section. 10 yards by 3 Yards such a large defect that unless the bottoms are sand this element will not disapear without a volcano, glacier, massive earth quake etc. Civil engineering wise you have something called an angle of repose and that means that your cuts perpendicular edges will eventually become a slope in real time not geologic. In short what you see today is more a v than what would have been there 140 years ago. It will continue to slope till you reach the angle of repose and then you can cantor over it. So lets return to our teacher Montrose and the fight. I agree that montrose has a great approach but can't resist the sidebars. I don't believe that "All things in nature tend to randomness. It's a law." Wildlife for example are not distributed randomly and in this day you can use GIS overlays and predict where to find them. Food, water, and shelter haven't changed but our ability to find those places has. The last time I viewed the ditch it was steep sided and I believe it has a man enhanced shape to it. I do agree there are random heavy rainfall events that change things in a short period of time. MTF or Ford B is a good example. But in the long run the drainage remains within certain boundaries which terrain conditions varying within any short period. I think a first impression of a potential terrain feature needs to be addressed . The troopers were not walking and were close to contact. Without details of the extent depth and nature why charge into it? Seems to me that there should have been evidence of where the Indians were crossing it. Even at the retreat crossing I believe there were buffalo trails visible to climb out of the river. Back to the troopers and what a commander would assume they could do under stress. What training do you think the had that we could assume they could jump 30 feet in a formation. One of my pet peeves is that hindsight does not include evaluation of the actual troopers there and their abilities. I don't think the first time jumping a ditch over 15 feet wide should be in combat conditions. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 11:03:36 GMT -6
The randomness "law" was nonessential and a poor choice by me as it's a geologic time horizon. All the little nitches in your biom, the nooks and cranies will eventual wear down but for now yes they are very real and various plants and animal are locating in each specialized spot. The sharp cut banks will eventually slough and the angle of repose established. Clay is tough stuff until it gets saturated with rain.
"Charge into" exactly, no one in their right mind would. It was Reno's point that has fallen on mostly deaf ears for 140 years.
The Indian stories indicate the young warriors as infantry, foot soldiers entered and were in it. Many just armed with arrows and Reno wasn't stupid enough to get in range for arrows. My impression is both ends of the ditch end in a more gentle swale. As I said before I think the ditch is an eroded cow path/game trail and is why it is principally straight.
I agree with most of the Troopers green and all the troopers historically given no freedom and kept in rigid formations they would not have the opportunity learn, to test themselves or to do much with a horse.
Old buck would frog jump the cattle guard and go eat my aunts garden. I never had the opportunity to jump except a cow path and would be intimidated by 15 feet but alas as you say our horses are sapient beings and they largely sense what we want/need and we just have to stay in the saddle and give direction.
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Post by magpie on Oct 8, 2015 16:45:03 GMT -6
One should read Sergeant Windolph's description of Custer going from offense to defensive in the Yellowstone campaign 2 years before, he is his own recon patrol leads the chase on a band of Indians, figures out they are fiening retreat drawing his army into heavy cover, Custer wheels around goes back to his troops. Custer and crew,then see 250 Indians march (yes march) out of the timber. He pulls back to where there is a stream on two sides ( two tributaries ? an oxbow ?) dismounts a skirmish line ( it doesn't say the number of troopers). Custer feels the situation is so desperate he has only one horse holder per 6 horses. There's timber to his rear: horse holders to the timber. Indians attack the skirmish line and the soldiers get lucky and bring down a chief, then Indian standard bearer (long pole with all those feathers) and a few others go to the chief's aid and are hit to. Custer notices an Indian to their rear near the Horses turns and attacks ( much like Reno ) they hit the Indian. Later they go over that ground and find foot prints of 40 Indians. The Indians withdraw to fight another day. So a different Custer was at LBH? Ford D
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 14:25:59 GMT -6
The randomness "law" was nonessential and a poor choice by me as it's a geologic time horizon. All the little nitches in your biom, the nooks and cranies will eventual wear down but for now yes they are very real and various plants and animal are locating in each specialized spot. The sharp cut banks will eventually slough and the angle of repose established. Clay is tough stuff until it gets saturated with rain. "Charge into" exactly, no one in their right mind would. It was Reno's point that has fallen on mostly deaf ears for 140 years. The Indian stories indicate the young warriors as infantry, foot soldiers entered and were in it. Many just armed with arrows and Reno wasn't stupid enough to get in range for arrows. My impression is both ends of the ditch end in a more gentle swale. As I said before I think the ditch is an eroded cow path/game trail and is why it is principally straight. I agree with most of the Troopers green and all the troopers historically given no freedom and kept in rigid formations they would not have the opportunity learn, to test themselves or to do much with a horse. Old buck would frog jump the cattle guard and go eat my aunts garden. I never had the opportunity to jump except a cow path and would be intimidated by 15 feet but alas as you say our horses are sapient beings and they largely sense what we want/need and we just have to stay in the saddle and give direction. Magpie, Most of that ditch was a dry stream/creek bed.
Regards, Tom
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Post by magpie on Oct 9, 2015 20:22:19 GMT -6
Magpie wrote, "To me the warrior filled "entrenchment" one mile South of the Village the major reason this attack failed. If you'd charged with 8 troops instead of 3 you could easily broken your Calvary in that ditch. Minus the ditch and with better communication Reno would have hit the Village at the same time as Custer and Benteen would have been behind Reno and to the left and the Indians would have been less inclined to Turn Reno's flank. Essentially young unmounted Warriors were waiting in Reno's ditch and behind the bluffs on both sides of Medicine Tail's mouth all in ambush. The Indians presented the Village in a way they knew would excite Custer to attack (should change his name to squaw killer from morning star). The Indians were one to two steps ahead all the way beside superiority in numbers." I hope you take no offense in my response. 1. The Otter Creek defense. The significance of the 'ditch' is not that it blocked the US direct approach to the village. It was on the flank of the US avenue of approach, a classic 'L" shaped ambush. 2. The Situation. There were 20ish Indians between the Reno element and the village. There was 30-50 in the Otter ditch on the US flank. These elements did not defeat the US. 900 Indians swept around the US force and were attacking from the south, with their right flank tied into the river shrubbery. The liar board has a few thousand posts claiming that the 20 Indians between Reno and the village could not defeat the US task force. I can not argue this, since it is completely true. But the lunatic board has no explanation of how to defeat the 900 Indians attacking from the Ford A avenue of approach. They do not because they can not. 3. Lunatics and Liars. The thelbha form is dominated by a few folks, with serious emotional and criminal issues. In my opinion, you have been exposed to the value laden and fact free arguments of that board. You show an open mind. I would like to discuss your theories. But I would like a discussion based on fact, and empiricism. Not the emotional fanaticism that is the bread and butter of the thelbha board. 1. Reno's ditch is just North of the Isiah Dorman marker and as I have no map to confirm "Otter" creek I have to make an assumption. It's more like a ditch than a creek. It seems a cut from the west side and east side (where the river is) of the bottoms (meadow). The axis of the ditch is almost exactly North/South. The axis of the River being roughly North East so the Ditch line is roughly 45 degrees from the river. The two water ways form a V with the point at the Timber where the glade was. I have located it on the basis of Maguire #1 centering on the bald land that is like a talus slope off from the cliffs, the essentially straight ridge line and the forest (I ignore the rivers undulating course as it is a moving and not a fixed landmark) lining those features up on the Google Earth I came straight down and hit the Isiah Dorman marker I then looked 200-400 yards down Valley and hit the ditch. I studied it, got some old RR map found it was on it and am satisfied. If we are agreed on our elements of terrain we can proceed. I believe you are saying because Reno followed the River axis of our V on down and the River combined with the cliffs is a barrier that the Ditch is then the short arm of the L ambush even though it's not the atypical typical perpendicular. My post game intel from young full blood Sioux scholar "Lyman" who wrote in the 1880's the ditch was filled with young warriors. You can find this in W.O. Taylor who kept Lyman's version and as Taylor was in the fight I believe he is indorsing Lyman. I add to that a citation I cannot remember where a chief tells the young warriors to take essentially infantry positions and "warriors to your horses" but they must go out and catch a horse or have one brought up thus delaying their entrance to the fight which was actually ideal as they were able to take advantage of any success by the tactics of the chiefs and young warriors (also could fill any deficite). I guess a highly mobile counter attack reserve force. Also another forgotten citation places Sitting Bull's son in command of the young warriors in the ditch. As your post game intel differs: can you provide citations for? Your Indian sweep is from where? Unfortunately US Army 1870 is using right and left without defining axis. Lyman says Reno unknowingly passed along our lines. Girard said Indians were firing (burning) the grass along the river banks as they charged along {laying smoke ?}. So your 900 Indians are where?? I perceive 200 Indians hidden along the river's timber skirt and no more because these guys are very imobile in that position and if the fight doesn't come to them I loose their power(support). I perceive the 300 young inexperienced warriors in the ditch with a couple of hundred mounted veteran Warriors on their way. According to Windolph only 1/2 the Indians were armed with firearms and I would guess the older richer Warriors had good firearms and horses. I am not sure how a V ambush play's out with archers. I read that friendly fire issues are what drives the perpendicular L ambush in modern tactics. If the Indians kept the river timber force in reserve they are 10 feet below the plane of the bottoms that the ditch Indians are firing across. As far as how many Indians between Ford A and Reno's ditch it's in a constant state of flux. I was hoping to fight the Custer sector but we can do this one first as it sets the stage for defeat and disaster and it's well documented and therefore becomes my model for the Custer sector. Sorry all I am Hoping to return to figuring out how both sides would fight this out.
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Post by herosrest on Jan 29, 2016 15:18:54 GMT -6
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