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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 10:51:25 GMT -6
You will find no disagreement from me WO. Overcome by events, and a simple reaction to those events tells the tale.
I do not believe there was any pause at all in the manner we would think of a pause, a stopping of action, for some purpose. Custer was engaged from the time he approached near Ford D and there was no stopping that action until the end.
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Post by Beth on May 25, 2015 10:59:00 GMT -6
This may be a silly question but was Ford D a good crossing or was it a "I HAVE to cross now and this is the best I am going to do"
By reactive move, do you mean that he got chased up there?
Beth
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 11:26:01 GMT -6
If you want to simply cross a river Beth Ford D is as good as anyplace else. Good is relative though, and you must then ask the question what was a crossing there, at that particular place, good for?
If there were Indians in force (force too is relative so define it as force enough to impede) then it ain't so good.
If in crossing it does not gain anything of material value, again it ain't so good.
If you have strung out your command from Hell's Half Acre to Bumscrew, Egypt, crossing there is not so hot either.
Crossing at that ford would ONLY be good if you had maintained the element of surprise, you can get over and deep fast, and you have a sufficiency of force to back your play. Do you see any indication that any of these three essentials were present? I don't.
For every action, there is reaction. When you are reacting you sure as hell are not winning.
The first question the tactician must ask himself is - If I do thus and so, what is to be gained. If the answer is nothing or I don't know, you would be well advised not to take the action you contemplate. The second is - If there is something to be gained, what are the risk(s) involved. If the risk is manageable , take it. If the risk is not manageable, do something else. Just like anything else in life Beth, risk and reward, so don't invest the rent money in the corn crop at the North Pole.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 25, 2015 11:35:50 GMT -6
Just throwing out speculators here, but what if Smith got wounded on the journey back from ford D, a few more may also have been hit too. Maybe a few of Wolftooth’s band had engaged from long range around cemetery hill or the battalion came under fire from random groups whilst moving back from the ford.
So if they did suffer a couple of wounded during the return trip, then would cemetery hill be a logical place to halt while they sort out some hasty medical treatment? The threat level could have still been low around that time and seeing it was Smith then Custer could have granted a short period of time (say 20 minutes) to dress any wounds.
Now if they did have a halt on medical grounds then wouldn’t it be prudent to deploy part of your force in skirmish order, Say E Company?
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 11:43:04 GMT -6
What would you do Ian? Would you halt with a bazillion Indians on the other side of that river, even to minister to some wounded. Your responsibility is to the living and the whole, and keeping your force in being. Harsh but also very true.
If your answer is halt and attend to the wounded, remind me not to be assigned to your command.
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Post by Beth on May 25, 2015 11:43:38 GMT -6
If you want to simply cross a river Beth Ford D is as good as anyplace else. Good is relative though, and you must then ask the question what was a crossing there, at that particular place, good for? If there were Indians in force (force too is relative so define it as force enough to impede) then it ain't so good. If in crossing it does not gain anything of material value, again it ain't so good. If you have strung out your command from Hell's Half Acre to Bumscrew, Egypt, crossing there is not so hot either. Crossing at that ford would ONLY be good if you had maintained the element of surprise, you can get over and deep fast, and you have a sufficiency of force to back your play. Do you see any indication that any of these three essentials were present? I don't. For every action, there is reaction. When you are reacting you sure as hell are not winning. Thanks. I agree about if you are reacting, you are not winning. And I would add possibly you are not in charge of the Battle, which seems to have been Custer's only hope of achieving success that day. Custer seems to be reacting from the moment he thought they had been 'discovered' and 'fleeing'. If at that moment he had taken a few minutes to truly look at the picture and stop reacting to events, do you think he would have seen something different? We always talk about Custer's defeat. What would a successful outcome have looked like-not necessarily a win but but setting up for an eventual win by US forces. Would it have been just plow into the valley with everything and hope you can drive as many towards Terry as possible?
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 25, 2015 12:01:17 GMT -6
How do you know they were under pressure at that point? they could have been under more pressure when they withdrew from ford B.
If they were actually getting pushed around then surly the Indians would be dictating play thus giving the cavalry no other choice but to dance to their tune.
Montrose said they may have halted for twenty minutes, for what reason we don't know and that's why we are having this discussion, I said that I was throwing around ideas, Smith getting treated is one possibility as he would be still alive, and of course if they were under pressure then you don't stop.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 12:11:08 GMT -6
Beth:
1)It is pretty hard to be in charge of a regimental battle when you actually are only influencing the action of one company.
2)It does NOT SEEM he was. He WAS.
3) Idiots like Custer think that only the here and now is important, while tacticians look at how the here and now fits into the campaign plan as a whole. Getting at that infrastructure, the center of gravity, was the important thing. Had that been accomplished, or even partially accomplished, it would not have mattered if what remained were driven into Terry or scattered to Hawaii. The campaign objective would have been largely accomplished, and the only thing remaining would be clean up the beer bottles and empty the trash. Custer had no clearly defined tactical objective, that was consistent with the campaign's operational objective(s).
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 12:32:13 GMT -6
Ian: How do I conclude they were under pressure?
1)They dismounted and formed skirmishers.
2)Kellogg was found by Gibbon down by the river and a few others as well, indicating action taking place.
3) There is no indication that they stayed at the ford. Had they reached that place would you not think they would stay, and send for, if there was no opposition? If they did not reach that place, there is a very good chance they could not, and that too would mean opposition.
4) If they were tending wounded, Smith or anyone else, how were they wounded without previous immediate engagement, and the most logical place for that was somewhere between the river and Cemetery Ridge. Does it sound logical to you that a Smith, supposed by some to have been wounded at Ford B would have his butt carried several miles to Ford D, then back again to Cemetery Ridge, before someone tended to him? Not me.
5) "May have" does not mean did.
6) Do I "know"? No I do not, but I see many things that would lead me to believe they were engaged, and very few, in fact no, sign that they were just taking their ease, or any other activity except fighting.
7) Just because someone reported a pause, does not mean it was a stop action or time out. It means only that events centered around one particular place for a period of moments. Some idiot, I think Philbrick, suggested that they were halted there to pick out the evenings entertainment. I sort of dismiss that idea as well. These people were in a battle, and regardless of if you are Custer or Frederick the Great (both extremes of competence) you do logical, rational things in the middle of a stand up firefight, to have some chance of seeing the sun rise tomorrow.
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Post by Beth on May 25, 2015 14:05:05 GMT -6
Beth: 1)It is pretty hard to be in charge of a regimental battle when you actually are only influencing the action of one company. 2)It does NOT SEEM he was. He WAS. 3) Idiots like Custer think that only the here and now is important, while tacticians look at how the here and now fits into the campaign plan as a whole. Getting at that infrastructure, the center of gravity, was the important thing. Had that been accomplished, or even partially accomplished, it would not have mattered if what remained were driven into Terry or scattered to Hawaii. The campaign objective would have been largely accomplished, and the only thing remaining would be clean up the beer bottles and empty the trash. Custer had no clearly defined tactical objective, that was consistent with the campaign's operational objective(s). How in world does a commander only think here and now??? Good grief even a dog catcher has to plan what to do if the dog goes left or if it goes right while still knowing what the dog is doing now and looking to make sure the dog doesn't have a friend. Right now we have a lot of weather rocking and rolling around here with tornadoes, floods, and severe storms. (You know it's going to be a bad weather day when there are tornado warnings at 10 AM.). I don't know how severe they are going to be in the area and on the news but we are safe, high and dry and monitoring the situation. Beth
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Post by Colt45 on May 25, 2015 14:07:56 GMT -6
I tend to agree with QC, that Custer was under pressure from Ford D onwards until LSH. I believe this for the reasons QC listed, but also because I remember a report of horse tracks leading up to the river, then stopping and returning the same way they came without crossing. I believe most people attribute this to ford B, but I think this references ford D and is bolstered by finding Kellogg in that area. Also tracks in the ford B area did not turn on themselves as in a complete about-face. I can't put my finger on that report at the moment but will keep looking for it. If anyone knows the report I am referring to, please mention it.
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 14:38:43 GMT -6
Beth: I don't know.
Colt: A halt in the action or pause makes absolutely no sense. The only way such testimony can be explained is if pause was used incorrectly, by I think JSIT (who was not there), and what was meant was that for a few moments (length undetermined and undeterminable) that the core of any action taking place was in a relatively static location.
SIDEBAR: I walked into the Madam's girl cave about half an hour ago, and thought for a moment I had entered an alternate universe. There sitting on a side table was a copy of "Last Days of George Armstrong Custer" by Thom Hatch. Now my wife reading about Custer has about the same likelihood as Jesus Christ sitting down to eat pork Bar B Q. So I called said Madam who is at present Malling, and asked. As it transpired my brother in law gave it to my sister in law to give to the Madam while those latter two worthies were living the high life in Vegas last week, and she had forgotten to tell me.. Knowing Hatch (not well, but we frequent the same tobacconist) I turned to his chapter on Battle Ridge, the very thing we here discuss. DON'T FRIGGING BOTHER OR WASTE YOUR MONEY. Expected what I got, and I was not disappointed --- diddly squat. As history it was well below Batman and Robin and about on the par with Archie
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Post by Beth on May 25, 2015 15:10:31 GMT -6
You guys save me so much money on books. Can anyone recommend a balanced biograph on Custer BTW
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Post by quincannon on May 25, 2015 15:46:39 GMT -6
NO- You either love the guy or despise the guy, and that leaves very little room for a balanced middle ground.
I think it would be easier to find a balanced biography of Benedict Arnold written by George Washington.
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Post by welshofficer on May 25, 2015 17:35:33 GMT -6
QC,
I think we have to be very careful with using a word like "pause". Kellogg is the best clue to what was probably happening.
WO
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