|
Post by quincannon on Jun 9, 2015 14:53:20 GMT -6
We have the offspring of the last mules used by the Army here in Colorado Springs. I pass by the farm that houses them each Sunday on my way to church and they are now owned by the Shriners. Every event these mules participate here in town is testimony to just how intelligent and well trained a mule can be if it is properly trained and cared for. They really are amazing to watch. The Grant Library at Fort Carson has a fairly large number of books on the Army mule, and their connection with the post. Matter of fact the post maintenance area is still called the mule barn in deference to the fact that it was in that area these animals were housed.
The last ones the Army owned left as late as 1956, and were used by a Field Artillery Battalion to transport Pack 75mm howitzers. I forget the battalion's designation, but I will look it up in the by and by.
PS Units were the 4th Field Artillery Battalion (Pack) and the 35th Quartermaster Pack Company.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jun 9, 2015 15:23:54 GMT -6
I am looking for the origins of a common saying from this period. It is said repeatedly in books and articles of this era that a single Indian lodge represents 6 to 15 people, of whom on average 2 are warriors. CPT John Scroggs Poland (bvt LTC; Sixth Infantry; Post Commanding Officer at Standing Rock) wrote that at the Standing Rock Agency there averaged about seven Indians per lodge and four per wickiup [Smalley, Little Bighorn Mysteries, p. 6 – 4]. If there were 1,900 lodges, that would mean 13,300 Indians + 1,600 for the wickiups, or close to 15,000 total. He also said not all the Indians in the village were engaged at any one time [CPT J. S. Poland’s report; Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 46]. In his book, 1SG John Ryan claimed there were usually five or six warriors to a lodge: “… the ordinary rate….” [Barnard, Ten Years With Custer, p. 252] (seems a bit excessive). Ryan estimated the Indian strength at the Pompey’s Pillar fight during the Stanley Expedition of 1873 at 1,500 warriors [p. 270]. Ryan also makes the point that in 1873, “… Sitting Bull was not at that time joined by any very formidable force of agency Indians” [p. 271]. “… I have seen the Cheyennes, Arapahoes, Kiowas, Apaches and Comanches move together in the Indian Territory and in Kansas years before, while campaigning there under General Custer, and I should say there was double the amount move out from this camp” [p. 301]. Stanley Vestal [aka, Walter Campbell] quotes White Bull, saying there were about 2,500 warriors “fit to bear arms.” He put the number of lodges at over 2,000 with from one to three warriors per lodge, more than half of them seasoned warriors. Vestal also said, “the top estimate of the effective manpower of the Western Sioux when all together” was 3,000 [ Sitting Bull, p. 157, also p. 147; Warpath: True Story of the Fighting Sioux, p. 80; Warpath and Council Fire, p. 235]. Vestal agreed with Grinnell, though Grinnell’s numbers appear considerably higher than Vestal’s. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Jun 9, 2015 18:14:35 GMT -6
Fred,
You lost me. Where does 1,900 lodges come from?
I believe the maximum possible lodges was 800. Maximum. 500-800 is reasonable.
If fuchs is till out there, would appreciate a comment.
Respectfully,
William
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jun 9, 2015 18:49:59 GMT -6
CPT Philo Clark (Second Cavalry)—On June 17, the day of the Rosebud fight with Crook, the Indians had about 1,200 standing lodges and 400 wickiups, about 3,500 warriors [Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 116].
George Bird Grinnell—at least 200 Cheyenne lodges. Two Moon claimed his band consisted of fifty lodges and it was only one of several Cheyenne bands at the battle [Thrall, “The Sioux War,” Kansas State Historical Collections, Vol. XVI, p. 573]. There were six Sioux villages, each as large or larger than the Cheyenne. The Cheyenne told Grinnell there would be as many as three to four fighting men per lodge. That would have meant between 4,500 to 6,000 warriors present [The Fighting Cheyennes, pp. 343 – 344].
LT Luther Hare—counted where forty tepees had stood and from that estimated there were about 1,500 lodges plus 400 wickiups. Based on that, a low estimate of the Indian fighting force would be around 4,000 [RCOI; Official Transcript, p. 389]. Estimated there were between 20,000 to 25,000 ponies.
George Herendeen—this was the largest camp he had ever seen, but he felt the Indians had moved the camp the morning the troops arrived (this is highly unlikely—it was the day prior). Just after the battle, he estimated the village contained about 6,000 people, half of who were warriors (3,000) [Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 260]. Later, at the RCOI, he told the court there were about 1,800 lodges and 3,500 fighting men [Official Transcript, p. 334; Army & Navy Journal, July 15, 1876; RCOI]. In his 1911 interview with Walter Camp, Herendeen claimed there were 1,800 lodges and 3,500 warriors. Herendeen felt there were between 400 – 500 in the surrounding hills.
Dr. Thomas B. Marquis—Wooden Leg told Marquis that the Cheyenne circle was about 300 lodges—some 1,600 people—and that the Blackfeet was about the same. The Sans Arcs was larger; the Oglala and Minneconjou circles were larger than the Sans Arcs; the Hunkpapa circle about twice the size of the Cheyenne. Based on this, Marquis estimated a camp of some 12,000 people, which could easily have meant 3,000 or more warriors [Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 106]. Most of the tepees were family lodges. Actually, the above is misleading. What Marquis wrote was, “At the Northern Cheyenne fair at Lame Deer in 1927, I estimated the encampment at about 1,100. Wooden Leg and some older men were asked to compare this camp with the one on the Little Big Horn… it was generally agreed that there must have been 1,600 or more Cheyennes in their camp when the Custer soldiers came” [Marquis, Wooden Leg, p. 206, FN].
“Major” James McLaughlin—the Hunkpapa circle did not contain over 400 lodges [My Friend, the Indian, pp. 136 – 137]. McLaughlin was the U. S. Indian Agent at Devil’s Lake Agency, D. T., from 1870 – 1881. The title “Major” is courtesy and custom for Indian agents. From 1881 to 1892, McLaughlin made a great effort to determine the number of Indians at the LBH. Edward Godfrey wrote, “… about one-third of the whole Sioux nation, including the northern Cheyennes and Arapahoes, were present at the battle; he estimates the number present as between twelve and fifteen thousand; that one out of four is a low estimate in determining the number of warriors present; every male over fourteen years of age may be considered a warrior in a general fight… considering the extra hazards of the hunt and expected battle, fewer squaws would accompany the recruits from the agencies. The minimum strength of their fighting men may then be put down as between 2,500 and 3,000. Information was dispatched from General Sheridan that from one agency alone about 1,800 lodges had set out to join the hostile camp; but that information did not reach General Terry until several days after the battle” ["Custer’s Last Battle 1876," p. 14].
Nicholas Ruleau—(a fur trader who had lived at the Pine Ridge Agency since 1879, and who spoke the Sioux tongue and knew a number of Indians who fought at the Little Big Horn: [Hardorff, Lakota Recollections, p. 38; in a 1906 interview with Judge Eli S. Ricker] • Oglala: 350 warriors, led by Crazy Horse. • Hunkpapa: 1,000 warriors, led by Sitting Bull. • Minneconjou: 700 warriors, led by Buffalo Bull. • Sans Arc: 300 warriors, led by Spotted Eagle. • Brulé (also called Rosebud Sioux): 80 warriors, led by Flying Chaser. • Santee: 40 warriors, led by Red Top. • Yankton Sioux: 40 warriors. • Cheyenne: 45 warriors, led by Little Coyote. • Total Indians: about 6,000 in camp. Ruleau said about one-third of the total number were single men, accounting for the lower total as compared to the number of warriors. • Total warriors: 2,555.
GEN Hugh Scott—a year after the battle he attempted to count the rings and reached 1,500 without counting them all. From this, he estimated closer to 7,000 Indians were in the camp [Some Memories of a Soldier, p. 49].
LTC Michael V. Sheridan— On June 6, 1876, Col. Michael V. Sheridan—LG Philip Sheridan’s brother—dispatched a message to Terry: “‘Courier from Red Cloud Agency reported… [on June 5, 1876] that Yellow Robe… says that 1,800 lodges were on the Rosebud and about to leave for Powder River… and says they will fight and have about 3,000 warriors.’” This now clearly indicated the military expected a large number of Indians, willing to fight. Terry received this message after the LBH fight [Willert, Little Big Horn Diary, p. 97].
Edgar I. Stewart wrote that if Vestal, Grinnell, and McLaughlin are in general agreement, the matter should be settled. They were [Custer’s Luck, FN 15, pp. 311 – 312]. After the battle, Terry learned from General Sheridan that about 1,800 additional lodges had set out to join the hostiles. Stewart believed about 3,000 warriors were there and they were in a generally higher proportion than would be the case. Stewart felt there might have been “thousands” of Indians in the vicinity this day.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 10, 2015 8:23:18 GMT -6
We use pack animals for such things as taking fish into remote areas. We have several officers that own mules. The certainly can do the job. My partner when we patrolled the Verde River rode a mule and we had many great stories about Amos. My horse Flash was famous for chasing down young men that didn't have fishing licenses. That included jumping into the water after them when they thought crossing the river was an escape route.
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 10, 2015 14:17:35 GMT -6
We use pack animals for such things as taking fish into remote areas. We have several officers that own mules. The certainly can do the job. My partner when we patrolled the Verde River rode a mule and we had many great stories about Amos. My horse Flash was famous for chasing down young men that didn't have fishing licenses. That included jumping into the water after them when they thought crossing the river was an escape route. AZ Ranger How did Flash know who had licenses or not? Beth
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 10, 2015 16:16:21 GMT -6
He didn't Beth, but obviously you have never been in the Verde Valley in the summer time. Flash just wanted to get cool and those miscreants just though he was after them. Beautiful place the Verde Valley.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 10, 2015 17:58:58 GMT -6
He didn't Beth, but obviously you have never been in the Verde Valley in the summer time. Flash just wanted to get cool and those miscreants just though he was after them. Beautiful place the Verde Valley. Sounds like a smart horse. Unfortunately I've not been to the Verde Valley--the only bit of Arizona I've made it to is the Four Corners area. It's a shame too because my brother has lived in the Phoenix area close to 20 years and I'm the only sibling who has never been out there to see him. Beth
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jun 10, 2015 18:12:09 GMT -6
The Verde Valley goes down from Flag to Phoenix. It was once evidently lush and green hence the name. A stark beauty, not appreciated by all.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 10, 2015 20:52:28 GMT -6
We use pack animals for such things as taking fish into remote areas. We have several officers that own mules. The certainly can do the job. My partner when we patrolled the Verde River rode a mule and we had many great stories about Amos. My horse Flash was famous for chasing down young men that didn't have fishing licenses. That included jumping into the water after them when they thought crossing the river was an escape route. AZ Ranger How did Flash know who had licenses or not? Beth That was easy the ones with the licenses didn't run. He would even try to look at them when I checked them. He was my best horse
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Jun 10, 2015 21:00:59 GMT -6
Man, he looks like he is ready to judge the photographer.
I know that you've mentioned that you have had several horses over the years. What is generally a working horse's career length?
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Sept 6, 2015 19:17:36 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by montrose on Sept 6, 2015 20:28:08 GMT -6
How important is training? NYPD fired 84 shots with one hit. news.yahoo.com/police-fire-84-shots-man-233124390.htmlThe Boston bomber was the target of several hundred rounds with also one hit. He lay motionless and was clearly visible with NVG and thermal sights. Indian casualties at LBH were ridiculously low, due to poor individual and leader training. They were shooting at targets 800 meters away, which is just wasted effort. For all the shooting at LCN ridge we have no Indian casualties reported at all. The Reno Hill fight lines up with how many Indian fatalities? Two if I recall Gordon Harper's view.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 7, 2015 18:25:13 GMT -6
This has nothing to do with cavalry observations... just observations... b ut I needed some place to put this post...
I am delighted with these new guys posting here... Michael, the two Davids, the new Dan, "Wild" once again. I think I can thank my good friend "Montrose" and my other good friend Dan Sheehan... and the constant decency of Beth, Colt, Dave, Tom, and a few others. It makes this place enjoyable.
My best wishes to you all, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2015 8:04:58 GMT -6
Man, he looks like he is ready to judge the photographer. I know that you've mentioned that you have had several horses over the years. What is generally a working horse's career length? Sorry I missed this one. Flash Parker Casey -- my best horse Custer -- the fastest walker 9 mph Apache Kahlua Red Cloud Ranger Major Smoke Chesty Puller Trooper John Chief These horse were over a 35 period. As a district officer more time was spent horseback. I really don't think there is any particular average time. Custer is 24 and will still out walk most other horses. Most have left for various reasons other than age. Smoke and Custer are still here along with my wife's two horses both are Paso finos. Flash and Casey did the majority of field patrol. Trooper John went through the Arizona Officer's Mounted School with me. We received crossed sabers at graduation and it an AZPOST certified course so you can wear them on your uniform shirt. Sorry for the delay AZ Ranger
|
|