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Post by quincannon on May 4, 2015 13:03:35 GMT -6
It was not the same in 1876 Fred. The post commander in those days was also a tactical commander, slotted in some regiment or other just as all officers were under the rank of Brigadier General. If your unit happened to be on his post he was in your chain of command. Normally that command did not interfere with how one might run his company, but that post commander still called the shots as far as local tactical employment went. The guy who commanded at Fort Phil Kearny for instance commanded both his assigned Infantry and cavalry assets.
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Post by Beth on May 4, 2015 20:26:03 GMT -6
Aren't horses more prone to sores as they lose weight and the saddles no longer fit the same? I believe that the 7th did the best they could for their horses (not to sure on the mules) but horses require a lot of forage to stay at their best and I believe they didn't care enough with them nor. because of Custer's long rides, were they given enough time to be out from under their saddles and graze one whatever the could find available--not that that would replace good oats and hay. Beth I am probably not the person to ask on forage. In Arizona we have areas that have 7 sections per AUM (animal unit month). When I visit Wyoming and Montana the feed is everywhere and don't see the problem. As far as the saddle the McClellan seems adaptive to size and it is made for narrow horses. I would think the grain was for energy expenditure rather than maintenance. When we trapped bears we grained the horses at 3 AM and they were full of it for the first hour or so. I believe they stopped early in the day to allow the horses to graze starting at the longest distance away and working in by night. I would think there may have been issue with the riders and keeping the load balanced but that would be guessing. Those horses are not commonly available and the horses of today are wider. I would like to find one. My Tennessee Walker named Custer is as close to one of those horses as I have ever owned. He walks at 9 mph and never stops. He is great for checking waters but sucks when looking for deer or elk. Regards Steve Have you looked into Rocky Mountain horses? I have a high school friend that sort of spends most of the year trail riding in the mountains in Colorado. He thinks highly off them. Beth
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Post by montrose on May 26, 2015 1:35:33 GMT -6
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Post by dave on May 26, 2015 11:13:45 GMT -6
I wonder if they have considered having "Keogh" as an ad hoc staff instructor? I am certain he would provide out of the box reasoning that SF Brass have not contemplated. Regards
Dave
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Post by montrose on May 30, 2015 7:31:45 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 30, 2015 12:03:55 GMT -6
Will, every time I have tried, the text comes out in one block, try cutting and pasting just a few lines as a time, that might work.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 30, 2015 12:39:14 GMT -6
Will, one of the ways I got round it was to download the full pdf/doc, once I had it on my desk top then I could work with it, but this doc above will not let me down load the file.
Ian.
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Post by montrose on May 30, 2015 14:32:28 GMT -6
He exhibits marvelous abilities in horsemanship. When fighting upon an open prairie he will frequently cast him self on the opposite side of his pony, until a foot on the back and a face under the neck of the pony are all that can be seen, and will fire with great accuracy either above or under him while at full speed. Any obstacle to the pony is a serious obstacle to the warrior. When advancing to the attack, he invariably annoys the flanks; and when on the most unfavorable ground will man age in some manner to perform a flank movement, seeming to thoroughly understand the moral effect consequent on having the flanks even slightly pressed. He is very quick to secure the nearest commanding cov ered position, and in a lesser time will have made himself well acquainted with the -ground —-its contour, its relief, its peculiarities of slope and its successive rises. Having the heights, he well understands the necessity of taking posi tion very near the military crest;
Okay, Thank you Ian, looks like that works.
Above quote is on Indian tactics.
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Post by montrose on Jun 4, 2015 19:42:30 GMT -6
Gerry, Glad to see you here. I have some questions for you. I assume you are familiar with this book, from 1881? It is consistent with other writings from Army/Navy Journals etc. Respectfully, William PS. Billy Markland helped me find the telegraph trail of the planning for the campaign. The links are all dead now, and I did not print them off. Any idea how to find these?
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Jun 4, 2015 23:13:07 GMT -6
Hi montrose,
It has been a while since I dropped in. Was following some cross talk between the boards. Thanks for the link to the Mountain Scouting by Farrow. Good stuff wish I would have read it years ago. Lately had a discussion of Scout William Sellow, this scout lived the book.
Concerning copying from a pdf or similar file that one can not cut and paste. What I like to do is: once it is displayed on the computer screen, hit and hold "ctrl" then hit "prt sc" or control print screen. This will take a picture of your computer screen. I then use paint program, paste the picture of the screen in paint, then one can crop the information and save it. Handy
As for the telegraph trail, doesn't ring a bell. Looked on a bunch of saved links and did not come up with anything. Maybe could put up the bad links and could derive something from them.
Getting myself prepared for the LBH campaign at the RealBirds. Should be working on physical more than mental preparedness. Not as easy as it should be.
Nice hearing from you William.
Gerry
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Post by montrose on Jun 5, 2015 19:02:49 GMT -6
Hmmmm,
I am reading a discussion on both boards about attacking in column. I believe I am seeing trailing posts, from some original post of this idea. In the absence of other evidence, I blame Beth and Darkcloud.
So let's look at this idea. The concept is that you form a column with 4 people, and the depth is everyone else. The column attack had great utility in the early age of firearms, 1550-1815. It suited an era of very bad firearms. The Brown Bess musket had a maximum effective range of 50 meters. So the column attack took advantage of this. You charged, the infantry would open fire at 100 meters or more. This means none of your folks were hit, By the time they reloaded, you had closed the gap and killed them.
Cavalry became the arm of decision 1618 to 1815.
And then some anti hussar theorist rifled a musket.
The column cavalry attack was useless. No sane, rational human being can claim this was reasonable in 1876. The people who do claim this have proved by thousands of posts that they are not sane, not rational, and know nothing of warfare of this era.
The idea is that you take 1000 men and form a column with 4 across. So of your 1,000 men, only 4 can shoot, using pistols with an effective range of 25 meters, assuming highly trained shooters. Then you attack 2,000 Indians, with 500 repeaters, 500 crappy muzzleloaders, 500 bows, and 500 clubs.
Your column is annihilated by the breech loaders and bows. US casualties are 100%, enemy close to zero.
The column attack was obsolete. You would be better off using the caracole.
So someone help me out here. How many successful column attacks occurred in the USA 1815 to 1945? How many with the caracole?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 5, 2015 19:44:43 GMT -6
I can think of several column attacks made during the ACW. Of those only two I know of that was successful, that of Latane's squadron 9th VA Cavalry on Royall's squadron of the 2nd U S Cavalry, The second was Fitz Lee's forward most squadron against Haight's squadron of either the 2nd or 5th US ( the 2nd Dragoons became the 2nd Cavalry, and the 2nd Cavalry became the 5th Cavalry in 1861, but former southern members, serving in the Confederate cavalry often used the old designation) sources are somewhat unclear, and I never took that deep dive into the weeds.
The frist action resulted in Royall (yes the same) being sent packing fast, and bought Latane a nice head stone. The second action caught the Union squadron dismounted and at ease on 31 August 62 on the Little River Turnpike at the present intersection of Lee's Corner Road. My home at one time was less than a 100 yards from the site of the engagement.
In both actions both sides were caught by surprise, and the first one to react won.
A column was used just up the road, again on the LRT at Aldie. Narrow streets, houses close to the road, caused theUnion to lose a regiment, took about 20 minutes. Not pretty.
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Post by Beth on Jun 5, 2015 20:27:39 GMT -6
Hmmmm, I am reading a discussion on both boards about attacking in column. I believe I am seeing trailing posts, from some original post of this idea. In the absence of other evidence, I blame Beth and Darkcloud. So let's look at this idea. The concept is that you form a column with 4 people, and the depth is everyone else. The column attack had great utility in the early age of firearms, 1550-1815. It suited an era of very bad firearms. The Brown Bess musket had a maximum effective range of 50 meters. So the column attack took advantage of this. You charged, the infantry would open fire at 100 meters or more. This means none of your folks were hit, By the time they reloaded, you had closed the gap and killed them. Cavalry became the arm of decision 1618 to 1815. And then some anti hussar theorist rifled a musket. The column cavalry attack was useless. No sane, rational human being can claim this was reasonable in 1876. The people who do claim this have proved by thousands of posts that they are not sane, not rational, and know nothing of warfare of this era. The idea is that you take 1000 men and form a column with 4 across. So of your 1,000 men, only 4 can shoot, using pistols with an effective range of 25 meters, assuming highly trained shooters. Then you attack 2,000 Indians, with 500 repeaters, 500 crappy muzzleloaders, 500 bows, and 500 clubs. Your column is annihilated by the breech loaders and bows. US casualties are 100%, enemy close to zero. The column attack was obsolete. You would be better off using the caracole. So someone help me out here. How many successful column attacks occurred in the USA 1815 to 1945? How many with the caracole? Next you will be expecting them to preform airs above the ground. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jun 5, 2015 20:47:47 GMT -6
Lest there be any lingering doubt about the use of the column as an attack formation in the era of the rifled firearm , let it be said that those who try are certifiably insane, those that think that is the right thing to do are likewise. Thank the Lord above, the God of Hosts and the Good Fairy that keeps a weather eye out for armies that this particular lunatic was thrown out of ROTC.
It was a bad tactic in 1861. It was a bad tactic in 1876, and if you think the tactic might have redeemed itself in the modern age, one should enquire of those of the South Alberta Regiment that survived the Hochwald in the Rhineland 1945. The came at the Germans in column, and they died in the same column
I think I did see Robert Taylor do the horse pistol two step on a big white horsey in a Disney movie. Perhaps that is the genesis of the entertainment we have endured these last few days.
Derogatory remarks aside, when you think about it ignorance that leads to stupidity is a shame. He dreams this stuff up in reenactors camp, or whatever they do what they do, and it sounds really neat. They apply all the proper buzz words - shock action - shock effect, and become enamored with their own ideas to the point where they think they are real. That maneuver or what ever you might want to call it, making the outside in and the inside out, at the gallop with someone shooting at you, by far surpasses arrow dodging horses, impregnable skirmish lines, 3 mile effective ranges for carbines, and equal distance to lend support. It is a world created by and for children. It is dress up gone rampant. It is insanity fostered and practiced by the insane.
Thank God some rational people still read his board,. He is the best recruiting tool Diane has.
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Post by dave on Jun 5, 2015 21:54:08 GMT -6
QC Sadly "that lunatic" truly believes he has the gravitas to bring his ideas to life and acceptance by others especially the professionals he belittles. Regards Dave
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