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Post by Beth on Apr 30, 2015 20:01:59 GMT -6
Wellington moving to the crossroads at Quatre Bras to delay the French advance was a reaction to what Napoleon was doing. Occupation of Mont St Jean Ridge that masked Brussels was a reaction to what Napoleon was doing. Everything from when Napoleon crossed the Franco-Belgian border until Wellington launched his counterattack late in the day points to the fact that Napoleon had the initiative. Even the Prussians marking to Waterloo was in response to something Napoleon was doing. When you are responding instead of taking the actions you want to, you do not possess the initiative. I agree at Ligney Napolean had the initiative. Napoleon had been running on initiative (and a lot of chutzpah) since Feb 26, 1815 but he was starting to peg the E. At dawn on June 18th I wonder if it was more of in Wellington's favor, Wellington had selected the battlefield that totally played to his style and had time on his side--the longer that Napoleon waited to make the openning move, the better it was for Wellington. The Prussians were in communication with him, he just didn't know how long it would take them got reach him. Napoleon on the other hand had no idea were Grouchy was but I believe knew early on the Prussians were still in the area. He was forced to make the first move because the longer he waited, the closer the Prussians would get. |
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Post by dave on Apr 30, 2015 20:54:58 GMT -6
Wellington moving to the crossroads at Quatre Bras to delay the French advance was a reaction to what Napoleon was doing. Occupation of Mont St Jean Ridge that masked Brussels was a reaction to what Napoleon was doing. Everything from when Napoleon crossed the Franco-Belgian border until Wellington launched his counterattack late in the day points to the fact that Napoleon had the initiative. Even the Prussians marking to Waterloo was in response to something Napoleon was doing. When you are responding instead of taking the actions you want to, you do not possess the initiative. I agree at Ligney Napolean had the initiative. Napoleon had been running on initiative (and a lot of chutzpah) since Feb 26, 1815 but he was starting to peg the E. At dawn on June 18th I wonder if it was more of in Wellington's favor, Wellington had selected the battlefield that totally played to his style and had time on his side--the longer that Napoleon waited to make the openning move, the better it was for Wellington. The Prussians were in communication with him, he just didn't know how long it would take them got reach him. Napoleon on the other hand had no idea were Grouchy was but I believe knew early on the Prussians were still in the area. He was forced to make the first move because the longer he waited, the closer the Prussians would get. Beth Napoleon's hubris caused him to still believe he had the best of Wellington, simply because he was Napoleon. Like Custer he saw no flaws in his thoughts or actions. Regards Dave |
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Post by Beth on Apr 30, 2015 21:00:17 GMT -6
The town of Waterloo is found mentioned in documents as far back as 1102, before Hastings, says Wiki. Why in the world would you believe a Belgian town speaking German or French for centuries, would have an English name? Why would you expect a Belgian town to speak German? Waterloo is Walloon, they generally speak a Beligan French dialect or else Flemish (Beligan Dutch) dialect. The German speaking Walloons is a very small minority to my understanding. |
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Post by Beth on Apr 30, 2015 21:40:54 GMT -6
I agree at Ligney Napolean had the initiative. Napoleon had been running on initiative (and a lot of chutzpah) since Feb 26, 1815 but he was starting to peg the E. At dawn on June 18th I wonder if it was more of in Wellington's favor, Wellington had selected the battlefield that totally played to his style and had time on his side--the longer that Napoleon waited to make the openning move, the better it was for Wellington. The Prussians were in communication with him, he just didn't know how long it would take them got reach him. Napoleon on the other hand had no idea were Grouchy was but I believe knew early on the Prussians were still in the area. He was forced to make the first move because the longer he waited, the closer the Prussians would get. Beth Napoleon's hubris caused him to still believe he had the best of Wellington, simply because he was Napoleon. Like Custer he saw no flaws in his thoughts or actions. Regards Dave I remember a quote of a conversation between Napoleon and Marshall Soult. Soult was urging Napoleon to recall Grouchy because Soult thought Wellington was a strong position. Napoleon is supposed to have said. "You all have been beaten by Wellington, you think he is a good General. I tell you he is a bad general and the English are bad troops and this affair is nothing more than breakfast." I have to admit that I have never understood why the French love Napoleon so much. Beth |
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Post by Beth on Apr 30, 2015 22:22:22 GMT -6
BTW one of the best books written about the actual battle is a 'Romance" by Georgette Heyer called The Infamous Army. I put Romance in quotes because the author prefered to be a historical writer and put a ton of research into her books,there is of course a romance in the book but it is secondary to the actual history of the time.
It's my understanding that used to be and might still be required reading at Sandhurst. I highly recommend it. I find it also helps me get a feeling for what it must have been like at Little Bighorn--only a much smaller scale. The nonbattle parts help set the tone and feeling of what it was like in and around Brussels for the British expats who had gone to Brussels for various reasons.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 30, 2015 22:29:17 GMT -6
Beth my original post in this matter to Ian was that Napoleon had and retained the initiative, and that he did not have to attack. His other choice would be to maneuver. I stand by that.
Much is made of initiative, and all things considered most would prefer to have it than not. It does not mean however that those who do not possess it automatically have had the snitzel. Lee had the initiative throughout the Gettysburg Campaign, yet he lost. Lee had the option to maneuver as late as the morning of 2 July. Lee and Napoleon must have had the same barber. Both got a crew cut, and both for essentially the same reason ---- hubris with a big H.
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Post by Beth on Apr 30, 2015 23:02:07 GMT -6
Under what circumstances does the initiative switch between Wellington and Napoleon? I agree that Napoleon had it up until the morning of the battle but then it's like he is never able to capitalize on a single move he makes. I am going to have to go back to the conversation under that topic because I seem not to understand it yet.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 1, 2015 6:55:46 GMT -6
Changing the subject a little; last week was the 100th anniversary of the Gallipoli campaign and the various TV channels plus the news networks have been doing their bit to honour this bloody campaign. I did find out some interesting data on my neck of the woods, one programme said that the northwest of England or Lancashire to be precise, lost more men than the total lost by New Zealand, the Lancashire Fusiliers alone suffered nearly 700 casualties out of 1.029 all ranks in just 24 hours, winning six Victoria Crosses (or as the story goes “six before breakfast”). linkIan. |
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Post by quincannon on May 1, 2015 7:24:41 GMT -6
Beth it passed late in the afternoon when Napoleon's final attack was crushed, and Wellington launched a counterattack.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 1, 2015 8:13:31 GMT -6
This map gives a good idea of the layout;  Ian. |
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Post by Beth on May 1, 2015 13:43:51 GMT -6
Great map. Thanks for sharing it.
Beth
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Post by jodak on Jun 18, 2015 13:39:56 GMT -6
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Post by Beth on Jun 18, 2015 22:52:44 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing the article jodak.
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