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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 8, 2015 10:01:00 GMT -6
No problem Dave.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on Apr 8, 2015 16:22:41 GMT -6
Okay I know this is a very basic question but why did Custer go or send someone down to Ford B? Was it just a case we are so close we should stick our nose in here and see what is around?
Beth
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 17:53:44 GMT -6
The key words are "Custer hadn't made up his mind". I think at this point GAC still believed he was in total control of the situation. He was repulsed at Ford B but probably didn't see the significance in this and the massive threat building. I don't believe he considered the possibility that the NAs would come out in force to meet him. He leaves Keogh in place to guard his rear while he continues north to scout a crossing. His intention was probably to call Keogh forward once he had secured a ford. This move north sealed the fate of the five companies. Over confidence, failure to see the threat developing, and placing too much distance between the companies were rookie mistakes that an officer of his experience should never have made. I don’t believe Keogh was waiting for Benteen and the pack train. Custer could not have realistically expected Benteen and the pack train to traverse the bluffs in a timely manner. Regards Mark You know, I think Custer thought he was in control of the situation until close to the end. Totally agree Shaw. I don't think he really doubted the outcome until the inevitable was starring him square in the face. Terrain probably had a lot to do with it and an overwhelming self confidence in his own ability. Regards Mark
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Post by quincannon on Apr 8, 2015 18:00:10 GMT -6
He sent 80 or so someones, two companies E and F. Reason --- stupidity. Fred will tell you dust and smoke obscured visibility. Probably very true. Recon, and that what is was, to detect presence. Where there is smoke and dust presence can be assumed. Dumb move.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 8, 2015 18:01:48 GMT -6
Mark,
They (whomever "they" were) called it Custer's Luck. Pure speculation on my part, but I believe GAC believed strongly in his own luck or star or whatever you want to call it.
Shaw
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Apr 8, 2015 18:03:07 GMT -6
He sent 80 or so someones, two companies E and F. Reason --- stupidity. Fred will tell you dust and smoke obscured visibility. Probably very true. Recon, and that what is was, to detect presence. Where there is smoke and dust presence can be assumed. Dumb move. Totally agree. Fred's book opened my eyes further in this matter.
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Post by Beth on Apr 8, 2015 18:14:01 GMT -6
He sent 80 or so someones, two companies E and F. Reason --- stupidity. Fred will tell you dust and smoke obscured visibility. Probably very true. Recon, and that what is was, to detect presence. Where there is smoke and dust presence can be assumed. Dumb move. Thanks. It does seem like a dumb move considering Custer had limited resources--of course Custer never added like he thought he had limited sources. Was the reason they traveled through coulees to avoid detection, because it was easier ground, or because drainage features should lead to the river?
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Post by quincannon on Apr 8, 2015 19:34:27 GMT -6
Primarily concealment I think. But one would think that Cedar, while providing concealment, concealed when concealment was not paramount. Then he goes along N-C-L ridge complex probably skylined. Does not make a whole lot of sense. Then to add insult to injury, he goes down to B.
That is why I wrote what I did above. He was trying to grasp a brass ring on a merry go round. We can provide reasons for each of his actions, but taken in total nothing he does from 3411 make any sense. It is like a drunken man stumbling down a street.
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Post by Beth on Apr 8, 2015 20:03:40 GMT -6
Primarily concealment I think. But one would think that Cedar, while providing concealment, concealed when concealment was not paramount. Then he goes along N-C-L ridge complex probably skylined. Does not make a whole lot of sense. Then to add insult to injury, he goes down to B. That is why I wrote what I did above. He was trying to grasp a brass ring on a merry go round. We can provide reasons for each of his actions, but taken in total nothing he does from 3411 make any sense. It is like a drunken man stumbling down a street. I tend to agree with you, he is all over the place running people hither and yon. It kind of reminds me of watching a person play blind man's bluff. Maybe it's because I live my days knowing I have x amount of energy so I have to make smart choices on what I do, that Custer looks so hectic as he zig-zags around. There seems to be no purpose--or at least no purpose I can see. If Custer was trying to get ahead of the women and children fleeing, why doesn't he head straight north. If he was looking for a soft spot to strike the village then why not stay closer to the bluffs. Beth
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Post by callmeconrad on Apr 8, 2015 21:43:50 GMT -6
Mark, They (whomever "they" were) called it Custer's Luck. Pure speculation on my part, but I believe GAC believed strongly in his own luck or star or whatever you want to call it. Shaw Custer also needed a big win for personal and professional reasons; his star was on the wane and he was acutely aware of this. He couldn't just call the winning play, he needed to be the Big Darn Hero too. Cheers, conrad
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Post by callmeconrad on Apr 9, 2015 2:37:15 GMT -6
Primarily concealment I think. But one would think that Cedar, while providing concealment, concealed when concealment was not paramount. Then he goes along N-C-L ridge complex probably skylined. Does not make a whole lot of sense. Then to add insult to injury, he goes down to B. That is why I wrote what I did above. He was trying to grasp a brass ring on a merry go round. We can provide reasons for each of his actions, but taken in total nothing he does from 3411 make any sense. It is like a drunken man stumbling down a street. I tend to agree with you, he is all over the place running people hither and yon. It kind of reminds me of watching a person play blind man's bluff. Maybe it's because I live my days knowing I have x amount of energy so I have to make smart choices on what I do, that Custer looks so hectic as he zig-zags around. There seems to be no purpose--or at least no purpose I can see.If Custer was trying to get ahead of the women and children fleeing, why doesn't he head straight north. If he was looking for a soft spot to strike the village then why not stay closer to the bluffs. Beth In Custer's defense, he had always been extremely 'active' as a commander, and was only at his best when he was a short ride away from his troops so he could personally lead a charge, shore up a defense, rally a unit, etc. Cheers, conrad
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Post by mac on Apr 9, 2015 6:01:58 GMT -6
I tend to agree with you, he is all over the place running people hither and yon. It kind of reminds me of watching a person play blind man's bluff. Maybe it's because I live my days knowing I have x amount of energy so I have to make smart choices on what I do, that Custer looks so hectic as he zig-zags around. There seems to be no purpose--or at least no purpose I can see.If Custer was trying to get ahead of the women and children fleeing, why doesn't he head straight north. If he was looking for a soft spot to strike the village then why not stay closer to the bluffs. Beth In Custer's defense, he had always been extremely 'active' as a commander, and was only at his best when he was a short ride away from his troops so he could personally lead a charge, shore up a defense, rally a unit, etc.
Cheers, conrad I agree conrad. I recently started a thread on military ways, that is ways of doing things and this statement really belongs there as a question. I might duplicate it. Anyway...I think this betrays his shallowness as a commander. I fancy that by the time one wears a star, one is expected to be commanding everything; not just leading from some point at the front of the troops. People more qualified than me please respond. Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 9, 2015 6:35:48 GMT -6
The only reason I can think of why he behaved so unconventionally is that he saw his objective was bigger than expected so he required the rest of the regiment to add weight to the attack, once on the high ground he may have expected things to develop in the valley as the three remaining battalions converged (Reno, Benteen & MacDougal), and faced with this force the Indian blocking force would break, especially since they knew that another force had got behind them, in his mind it was simple, they always ran and faced by around 400 troops to their front and another 200 from the flank or rear any no-coms would flee and any blocking force would slowly do the same.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on Apr 9, 2015 12:49:26 GMT -6
In Custer's defense, he had always been extremely 'active' as a commander, and was only at his best when he was a short ride away from his troops so he could personally lead a charge, shore up a defense, rally a unit, etc.
Cheers, conrad I agree conrad. I recently started a thread on military ways, that is ways of doing things and this statement really belongs there as a question. I might duplicate it. Anyway...I think this betrays his shallowness as a commander. I fancy that by the time one wears a star, one is expected to be commanding everything; not just leading from some point at the front of the troops. People more qualified than me please respond. Cheers The problem was that Custer was promoted too quickly and I believe based on gallentry, not leadership ability. Basically he got stars or brownie points for being a certain type of commander so when it comes to what was probably going to be the most important battle of his career and perhaps the launching pad for a new career, it isn't surprising that he would fall back on the Custer in the front leading his brave boys into battle. He was everyone's fair haired boy in the Civil War but did not seem to be able to adapt to either peace time or a new type of enemy. Custer the boy general was a poster boy. Custer the middle aged LTC in the godforsaken west was an anacrhromism. I wonder if he ever looked at the 'in circle' in Washington and wondered how the heck he got left out of it. Beth
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Post by Beth on Apr 9, 2015 12:51:24 GMT -6
The only reason I can think of why he behaved so unconventionally is that he saw his objective was bigger than expected so he required the rest of the regiment to add weight to the attack, once on the high ground he may have expected things to develop in the valley as the three remaining battalions converged (Reno, Benteen & MacDougal), and faced with this force the Indian blocking force would break, especially since they knew that another force had got behind them, in his mind it was simple, they always ran and faced by around 400 troops to their front and another 200 from the flank or rear any no-coms would flee and any blocking force would slowly do the same. Ian. Had Custer before June 25, 1876 ever faced a force even close to as big as what was at Little Big Horn? Beth
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