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Post by welshofficer on Apr 14, 2015 14:01:31 GMT -6
I think it is a basic error to engage in mind reading, but let us assume for a moment that Horse is correct, and that Indians escaping was paramount in Custer's thoughts. What then can we say that he did to prevent that escape, when looking at the only thing we know for certain, his scheme of maneuver. Doing that, the only thing that can be determined is that the scheme of maneuver facilitated that escape rather than prevented it. Escape to the southwest was the only real route the Indians could take, and Custer left that door wide open. QC,
The driving force ends up slaughtered on Battle Ridge and the blocking force abandons the left oblique towards the upper LBH and joins Reno.....!
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 14, 2015 21:17:35 GMT -6
WO: I am not sure what you are referencing here.
Calling Benteen a blocking is like calling a grain of sand a speed bump. Calling Custer a driving force gilds that particular lily a titch too much, don't you think.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 15, 2015 4:31:38 GMT -6
WO: I am not sure what you are referencing here. Calling Benteen a blocking is like calling a grain of sand a speed bump. Calling Custer a driving force gilds that particular lily a titch too much, don't you think. QC,
The only force positioning itself to potentially drive the village in a south westerly direction up the LBH is GAC/Keogh/Yates.
The only potential obstacle to flight in that direction would be Benteen at the intended end of the left oblique.
Both farcical.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 5:06:52 GMT -6
Which begs the question, despite its farcical aspects of why they were found in a position to drive the enemy in the only direction that they did not want them to go in the first place.
This is more like the Keystone Cops meet the Marx Brothers.
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Post by Beth on Apr 15, 2015 5:20:50 GMT -6
Surely you aren't going to cast Harpo as Custer or would it be the other way around.
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Post by mac on Apr 15, 2015 7:06:40 GMT -6
You have answered a question for me. Well done! I have often seen talk of Custer as hammer and Reno as anvil and thought that probably no professional would think that at all feasible given the relative scales. Thanks! Just seems to make the whole thing more unfathomable...(scratches head) Cheers
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Post by jodak on Apr 15, 2015 9:03:16 GMT -6
In regard to Benteen as a 'blocking force', I have a different interpretation of Benteen's mission than it seems do most. By this I mean that most seem to interpret his purpose as to round up any escapees from the "battle", whereas I see it as more along the lines of precluding anyone escaping from the "trap" or net that was being cast, with the difference being that there was the possibility of Indians having no connection to the forthcoming battle already being in that direction in the normal course of things. One thing that somewhat puzzles me is that, by whatever means, Gen. Terry seems to have had a remarkably good idea of where the Indians were to be found, and they were found and the battle fought almost exactly where he anticipated. However, in addition to 'these" Indians, he seems to have been concerned about 'other' Indians located to the South and hence his instructions to Custer of "... He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 15, 2015 9:31:38 GMT -6
You have answered a question for me. Well done! I have often seen talk of Custer as hammer and Reno as anvil and thought that probably no professional would think that at all feasible given the relative scales. Thanks! Just seems to make the whole thing more unfathomable...(scratches head) Cheers Mac,
If GAC gets to the north of the village, and if he drives it south westwards (both two huge if's!), what position is Reno in to prevent a withdrawal to the south west up the upper LBH...? Only Benteen was moving towards the upper LBH, until he turned right down Noname.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 10:03:39 GMT -6
And this is all the more of an indication that Custer was floundering about for ANY solution to the problem he himself made by going onto the bluffs, instead of the correct solution, which was his to implement at the beginning.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 15, 2015 11:23:31 GMT -6
QC,
You know your stuff, you are just not in the George Patton, Alexander Vandegrift, Lewis Puller and Welsh Officer "Stonewall Jackson fan club"....
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 11:46:55 GMT -6
Illustrious members of the Jackson fan club, but alas you are correct.
The danger in being in anyone's fan club I think is that there comes a point where you see only right and no wrong. We see too much of that.
I am a great admirer of Archer Vandegrift though.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 15, 2015 12:27:54 GMT -6
QC,
I'd like to think I can recognise TJJ's weaknesses.
But that left flanking movement at Chancellorsville twas a thing of beauty...
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 15, 2015 13:05:40 GMT -6
Granted, as was his defense of the railroad cut at Second Manassas.
By the way you left George Marshall off your list of Jackson's fans.
I was once decorated by TAG Virginia under the portraits of Lee and Jackson. Never showed the picture to my father. If he knew he would still be rotating in his grave. Did not dare ask General Castles where the portrait of Longstreet was. I did not want to get thrown out of his headquarters before I had lunch.
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Post by dave on Apr 15, 2015 14:20:54 GMT -6
Gentlemen
General Alexander Vandegrift did more than lead the 1st Marine Division to victory in the Solomon Islands, he saved the Marine Corps. After the war Truman, Ike and others wanted to dismantle the Marines and be absorbed by the Army. Vandergrift fought tooth and nail, sacrificing his career, went to congress and won. Great man. Regards Dave
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Post by mac on Apr 16, 2015 2:27:52 GMT -6
You have answered a question for me. Well done! I have often seen talk of Custer as hammer and Reno as anvil and thought that probably no professional would think that at all feasible given the relative scales. Thanks! Just seems to make the whole thing more unfathomable...(scratches head) Cheers Mac,
If GAC gets to the north of the village, and if he drives it south westwards (both two huge if's!), what position is Reno in to prevent a withdrawal to the south west up the upper LBH...? Only Benteen was moving towards the upper LBH, until he turned right down Noname.
WO
Exactly so WO and my guess is when Custer took his peek at ford B he saw lots of movement fleeing the village into sqaw creek and then west. In fact the one direction he didn't want them to go. Even with his limited information he should have know the east side of the river would produce that result. For a military man in his situation tactically would not the notion of forcing escape into your other forces be always the preferred action? Cheers
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