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Post by tubman13 on Apr 3, 2015 4:24:57 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 3, 2015 4:49:52 GMT -6
Good stuff Tom, I have always wanted to visit the Scilly Isles, it is supposed to be a beautiful group of islands and I have been told it’s like going back in time to England before the Second World War.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 3, 2015 16:01:02 GMT -6
That's nothing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Point_DisasterUSA! USA! Even our incompetence beats the British incompetence! Spectacular excuse, though, for extra credit. A Japanese tidal wave. Too good: HONDA Point.......
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Post by quincannon on Apr 3, 2015 16:30:13 GMT -6
JACKASS---Men died there and you sniveling pieceofshit make fun of it.
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Post by welshofficer on Apr 3, 2015 20:23:05 GMT -6
QC,
Not sure I would classify either disaster as "incompetence", but it's always interesting to watch a amateur naval buff graduate from Andrew Gordon to Wikipedia....if only Shovell had some of Beatty's splendid cats and Jellicoe's inherent conservatism....
WO
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Post by quincannon on Apr 3, 2015 23:49:15 GMT -6
I would have to conclude that it was negligence being the but for. Other factors contributed to Point Honda, but navigational error is negligence.
When 23 men die though it is not a matter for humor, attempted humor, or whatever the hell that tripe peddler was doing his happy dance for above. I find that disgusting. They were all someone's sons. Had one of them been his, I suspect he would not find it funny at all. Making light of tragedy takes a very sick soul.
There is another possible factor in all of this, and I don't believe I have ever seen it mentioned before regarding Point Honda. All of DESRON 11's ships were built by Bethlehem Steel, or Union Iron Works, based on Bethlehem plans and specification. All of those ships had very weak and totally substandard power plants, where the ones built to Bath Iron Works plans and specs were well thought of. All of the Beth Steel/Union IW ships were withdrawn from service by 1930 if not before, with an average age of about 10 years. Most were immediately scrapped. A few survived until WWII, and were among the first to be converted to destroyer transports (APD's) where speed and performance were not so critical. Like I said I have never seen faulty engines mentioned in connection with Point Honda, but I would think it very well could be another contributor to what happened.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 4, 2015 16:30:08 GMT -6
JACKASS---Men died there and you sniveling pieceofshit make fun of it. You seem very angry in this and some other recent posts, Quincannon. Please tone it down a bit. It makes unpleasant reading for the rest of us. If anyone feels it necessary to attack another, please take it to the Messages section where you can insult each other all day long without involving anyone else. Diane
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 5, 2015 8:12:29 GMT -6
That's ok Diane, but all I ask for is a level playing field, like when I got attacked for sticking up for my country. I hope you are feeling well and its good to see you back. Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 5, 2015 9:10:59 GMT -6
yantaylor, provide one example where you were attacked for defending your country. One. Include the equally dubious evidence for your country being under attack here.
While WO pretends to have read Gordon and continues to reveal he knows nothing of the issues addressed that made Gordon famous within the RN and the US Navy - and nobody connects these issues with the LBH although they apply rather cleanly - QC has to throw his periodic and disgusting fits and so elevate admiration for Army officers. You don't require long memories to recall derogatory remarks he's made about American generals over incidents with far worse loss of life than there at Honda Point, and how they could easily be viewed as flippant. He's not as highly regarded here as Montrose, Fred, or AZ and he resents it and continues to use the board as Twitter.
I don't understand scarface but I don't protect him or anyone.
Nobody was making fun of the death of American sailors but of the embarrassing excuses the USN brought forward to cover their rear end. A herd of US destroyers at 20 knots ran at near 90 degrees into the coast of California. This was a modern version of the incident in the Scilly Isles except the British had to deal with wind and sail - very difficult - and the US Navy didn't. This was not making fun of your country, Ian, but the USN and you're foolish to so pretend. Again.
It was foggy. They had, I believe, compasses and charts, but the excuse was the earthquake in Japan changed "currents" and this..... etc. No doubt, along with Brazilian butterflies, it played a role, but hurtling along in fog places high demands on ships, especially US Navy ships, running at high speed along a coast line filled with fishing and tourist boats. Like nuclear subs surfacing and smashing Japanese fishing boats off Hawaii in the recent past, it calls into question basic competence. About the best that can be said is the Navy at Honda Point was bloody lucky ONLY naval personnel were killed. Not so fortunate off Hawaii.
They had the option of using new radio direction finders or - God forbid - steaming in a speed reflective of conditions but chose not to and so demonstrate their seamanship. They did. Somehow the theory that those at sea always had to be prepared for the unexpected was forgotten in preparation and on watch - as on the Titanic - and they blamed nature for - again - running into California at 20 knots head on. Nature didn't play fair and they can't be blamed.........something.
Recall that when the Iowa lost people in a turret and the Navy conjured up a gay romance (a lie from the start) gone bad as the reason, and recall the Air Force did the same thing when a plane and four bombs vanished in Colorado which they cannot find, and the Japanese offered up the same theory absent any evidence when the Mutsu exploded and I cannot recall about the Vanguard just how desperate and venal the world's militarys can be covering their ass.
THIS is exactly the same mental element that Tryon and others in the RN and USN had to deal with: bring signals technology up to a reliable level while at the same time not allowing captains to over rely on it. But captains resented signals that gave them orders in combat or near it. This was an issue through Jutland, Leyte Gulf, the Indianapolis, and further. It is much the same issue at LBH, where communication issues within the 7th are not much different in presentation.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 5, 2015 9:17:26 GMT -6
Then all you needed to say is that you meant no disrespect and your original words were poorly chosen, and that would have ended the matter.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 5, 2015 9:26:55 GMT -6
I meant much disrespect to the US Navy over that incident and how they handled it. Deserved. I have no regard for your opinions.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 5, 2015 9:42:05 GMT -6
There was no need for this, you could have made your point in a more civil way, and I would have excepted that;
So inspiring from someone who never served, won't in the next go round, but sure enjoys hanging out with alleged soldiers. You should get a shiny lapel pin so everyone knows you're a real warrior (tell them about the gang fight you almost had once) and thrilled at the prospect of a war others will fight and providing you with lists of weapons to enjoy cut and pasting here.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Apr 7, 2015 8:32:16 GMT -6
That's ok Diane, but all I ask for is a level playing field, like when I got attacked for sticking up for my country. I hope you are feeling well and its good to see you back. Ian. Thank you, Ian. I am well now and plan to hang out here more often. I appreciate everyone keeping things going in my absence. I'm sorry if you have felt England has been disrespected in any way. It's probably just a case of envy. Yanks are like that. I volunteer at a small museum in the south, and we get a lot of northern visitors. Every once in a while, some guy comes in who wants to rehash our Civil War that ended 150 years ago. One northern guy went on for a while about how much he loved our area and said, right as he was walking out the door, "but we won the war!" Really, Einstein? They come down here because they hate where they live in the winter, so who won what? Just chalk up any insults to envy! Diane
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 8, 2015 2:59:01 GMT -6
Thank you Diane, great news.
BTW, have you heard anything regarding Hunkpapa (Gordon)? he never replied to any of my E-Mails.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 8, 2015 5:31:32 GMT -6
What?
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