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Post by fred on Mar 29, 2015 9:53:23 GMT -6
Thank you for your kind words, Fred. Coming from a writer of your calibre it means a lot. Well now you are flattering me, Conrad. And thank you for it. As for what I have said, you deserve every bit of it. We always seem too eager to criticize and not eager enough to compliment. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 25, 2015 15:29:25 GMT -6
Great thread and I hope this response hide diet pills.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 26, 2015 17:15:10 GMT -6
DucemusAn inquiry about Gatlings. I had imagined deployment at each flank, sweeping a kill zone across the front which is how German mg's wrought so much havoc on WWI static fronts. The hostiles and all plains tribes tended to avoid the 'civilised' battlefield approach of lining up as targets and prefered to sweep around flanks. So. I wonder how effective they could have been at LBH?. If I remember correctly, they were .50 cal and ranged out to about a mile which could chew up property in the village, although the tepees and stuff were moved beyond effective range of small caliber weapons after retreat from the valley attack and driving away the five companies east of the river. As I understand detail, the weapons were mounted on and operated from wagons which hauled them and this was the principal impediment to rapid movement. I have not been able to discover imagery of this setup which must have been quite a contraption - the first ever tank? The weapon taken with Reno's scout before the advance on LBH, suffered damage to its running frame and was stowed aboard Far West on the forward deck, where it remained until after the battle and return to Camp on the Yellowstone. Hanson's 'Conquest of the Missouri' details this and although his writing is somewhat embellished the account rings true in that the weapon with Reno was abandoned and would (I believe) have been crossed over the river to rejoin Low's battery. It is a bit fuzzy to pull together from records but another anecdote of the campaign. For those interested - p 332-3: 'At the time when General Terry retired from the field of the Little Big Horn, one of the Gatling guns with his command had become disabled and had been placed on board the Far West for safekeeping. It had been stowed away in a corner of the deck, together with a plentiful supply of ammunition, and still remained there undisturbed. One day when time was hanging heavily on his hands, John Dark, an ingenious member of Sergeant Caddie's contingent of "horse marines," hauled the gun out and finding that its running-gear only had been injured and not its firing mechanism, he made such repairs as were necessary to render it available for use on the boat. Then procuring a bucketful of cartridges, he and a comrade trained the gun down river at a flock of unsuspecting geese seated quietly on a sandbar, far beyond rifle range, and began grinding. Before the unfortunate waterfowl could comprehend that a great and mysterious disaster had come upon them, their ranks were decimated, and as they rose to fly in squawking terror they left the sandbar plowed, like a battlefield, by bullets and strewn with the bodies of the fallen. Encouraged by their success, the amateur artillerymen extended their target practice as opportunity offered, slaying buffalo, antelope and elk at discretion, for the Gatling gun could bring down any of these animals at such ranges that they had no chance to escape. Since frequently during the summer and fall all the experienced scouts and hunters were away with the campaigning troops, the spoils of the Gatling gun were very welcome to the men on the boat. It kept them better supplied with fresh meat than they could have been by even the redoubtable rifle of "Yellowstone" Kelly, or that of the lamented "Lonesome" Charlie Reynolds. Read book online - archive.org/details/conquestofmiss00hansPage 197 refers to the Forsyth's scout along the Yellowstone which included one Gatling with 10,000 rounds. Page 316 gives the August 1st Powder River fight involving artillery. Pvt. Dark was not 7th Cavalry but is on Terry's rosters.
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Post by Beth on Apr 26, 2015 20:05:49 GMT -6
I thought that Gatling guns couldn't sweep. They have the advantage of firing a lot of bullets quickly but it's into a rather small area so someone would just have to move out of the area it's aimed.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 27, 2015 5:55:24 GMT -6
Beth the Gatling did have a traverse and elevation system, it may be screw type as data on these weapons are hard to come by, I am sure the ones used around 1876 were in 45-70 calibre.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 27, 2015 6:38:52 GMT -6
It was also wheeled and if elevation is correct the movement of the wheel could hastily cover an area needing attention.
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Post by Beth on Apr 27, 2015 11:58:09 GMT -6
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Post by dave on Apr 27, 2015 14:49:15 GMT -6
I know that technology outpaced tactics in the War, did the opposite occur at a LBH? The cavalry had better arms but did they fail to use it properly or did the tactics do them in? I suppose it might be the combination of the two but wanted some thoughts about the matter. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 27, 2015 15:26:53 GMT -6
Dave, the newest technology would have been the lever action repeaters employed by the NA's. Arrows can be nocked and shot much faster than the Springfield. The only advantage the Springfield had was range, once the NA's got close enough repeaters and arrows may have helped negate that. The rapidity of the NA fire may have helped to suppress the cavalry fire. Properly employed tactics by the cavalry could have kept the NA's at distance, those tactics were not employed.
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Post by Beth on Apr 27, 2015 18:34:51 GMT -6
What was the range of a bow? Did all tribes use the same type of bow?
Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 27, 2015 19:18:35 GMT -6
Beth,range varies, if you are shooting arcing shots say 80 to a 100yds. If you are looking for pinpoint accuracy shooting flat say up to 50 yards. I used to put an arrow in a pie plate at 40 to 50 or so yards with a recurve bow and never worked at it that hard. At 30-35yds. they are lethal. Modern compound bows increase that a fair amount. The arcing shots would be like buckshot not very accurate but you would not want to be hit by the arrow when it comes down. Olympic javelin catchers have very brief careers.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Apr 27, 2015 20:03:34 GMT -6
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Post by dave on Apr 27, 2015 21:10:03 GMT -6
Tom Thank you for the info. I poorly stated my question but you gracefully let me slide. I was trying to ask if Custer had kept his unit intact, with the springfields, could they have held the indians at bay as did Crook at the Rosebud? I some times let my fingers get ahead of me. Regards Dave
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 28, 2015 5:06:33 GMT -6
Beth that would be a different version of the Gatling to the ones issued to Lieutenant Low’s unit. The cradle may be the same though and the weapon was turned by a Pintle mount, which would allow for sweeping fire. You can see the screw type elevation system at the rear. The main problem we have here is the smoke caused by the black powder, this would restrict the aimer’s line of sight. Hey did that Javelin thrower receive any extra points for that throw? Ian.
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Post by Beth on Apr 28, 2015 15:26:01 GMT -6
Beth that would be a different version of the Gatling to the ones issued to Lieutenant Low’s unit. The cradle may be the same though and the weapon was turned by a Pintle mount, which would allow for sweeping fire. You can see the screw type elevation system at the rear. The main problem we have here is the smoke caused by the black powder, this would restrict the aimer’s line of sight. Hey did that Javelin thrower receive any extra points for that throw? Ian. Sorry, that should have said I know that is NOT the type Custer used--it's an 1877 after all. I see the elevation adjustment but I don't see any way to move the gun left and right in what I would consider a sweeping motion. Is the problem that I am not seeing the right part of the gun or are am misundertanding what is meant by sweeping? I apologize because I am back into my thick brained mode of existance. I bruised a rib and strained musles with my port when I move wrong the other day. I don't know if the javelin thrower received any extra points but I would nominate the video for the "Agony of defeat" video Hall of Fame.
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