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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 13, 2015 7:23:57 GMT -6
Why should everyone else be obligated to head towards the sound of firing except Custer?
This whole thread illustrates my problem with giving military jargon priority over thought structure. Indians had no flanks. They were amorphous like an amoeba. Reno's retreat started as a charge to break out, and the horrors that followed would have been the same horrors had they continued into the village, except he saved most of his men heading east. Once the pistol is empty, you can hardly stop and reload at leisure. If the Indians did not run immediately, the 7th was cooked.
Benteen was tasked with the train, with all that ammo, food, supplies and spare mounts. How could Benteen swing to the village side with that horrendoplasty without handing it to the tribes? Are you aware how horses work? They cannot be driven at speed for ten miles and arrive at site able to immediately attack without rest, water, and care. Custer's horses were so hungry and thirsty Indian accounts say they were cropping grass during the battle.
Despite all the offered scenarios, there is no proof above else that Custer was on the offensive after MTC (not MTCF), but rather driven to LSH. There is no evidence he attacked at all. There were ample hostiles to surround all three groups and pulverize them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 7:33:19 GMT -6
Why should everyone else be obligated to head towards the sound of firing except Custer? This whole thread illustrates my problem with giving military jargon priority over thought structure. Indians had no flanks. They were amorphous like an amoeba. Reno's retreat started as a charge to break out, and the horrors that followed would have been the same horrors had they continued into the village, except he saved most of his men heading east. Once the pistol is empty, you can hardly stop and reload at leisure. If the Indians did not run immediately, the 7th was cooked. Benteen was tasked with the train, with all that ammo, food, supplies and spare mounts. How could Benteen swing to the village side with that horrendoplasty without handing it to the tribes? Are you aware how horses work? They cannot be driven at speed for ten miles and arrive at site able to immediately attack without rest, water, and care. Custer's horses were so hungry and thirsty Indian accounts say they were cropping grass during the battle. Despite all the offered scenarios, there is no proof above else that Custer was on the offensive after MTC (not MTCF), but rather driven to LSH. There is no evidence he attacked at all. There were ample hostiles to surround all three groups and pulverize them. "Why should everyone else be obligated to head towards the sound of firing except Custer? Isn't that why they were out there, to find and engage the NA? Should Benteen and co ignore it? No evidence to support GAC/Reno/Custer horses were tired. Evidence and testimony shows only three horses out of hundreds had a problem. Agree that there was enough indians to whoop all three group.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 13, 2015 7:37:24 GMT -6
I will endeavour to proceed;
You can only call Reno an “advanced guard” if he is ahead of the main body, which as we no he was not, I am not sure on this but, didn’t the two battalions (Custer & Reno) ride side by side down Reno creek separated by the creek itself? So up to then Reno was in advance of nobody (except the pack train of course), once in the valley he was on his unbeknown on his own, because now the two battalions were in effect separated by a river, trees and a line of bluffs.
Now the point is this; why did Custer cut loose from Reno, he must have had great faith in the Major and his 140+ force to draw the hostiles out towards him and either defeat them in the field or contain them, thus giving him and five companies free reign to conduct any manoeuvre they wanted, and in this case he wanted to get behind the village.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 7:37:34 GMT -6
Why should everyone else be obligated to head towards the sound of firing except Custer? This whole thread illustrates my problem with giving military jargon priority over thought structure. Indians had no flanks. They were amorphous like an amoeba. Reno's retreat started as a charge to break out, and the horrors that followed would have been the same horrors had they continued into the village, except he saved most of his men heading east. Once the pistol is empty, you can hardly stop and reload at leisure. If the Indians did not run immediately, the 7th was cooked. Benteen was tasked with the train, with all that ammo, food, supplies and spare mounts. How could Benteen swing to the village side with that horrendoplasty without handing it to the tribes? Are you aware how horses work? They cannot be driven at speed for ten miles and arrive at site able to immediately attack without rest, water, and care. Custer's horses were so hungry and thirsty Indian accounts say they were cropping grass during the battle. Despite all the offered scenarios, there is no proof above else that Custer was on the offensive after MTC (not MTCF), but rather driven to LSH. There is no evidence that he attacked at all. There were ample hostiles to surround all three groups and pulverize them. DC,
I often wonder what your views would be of this battle, if only you could free your mind from the straightjacket of that unsupported sacred cow....?
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 7:43:35 GMT -6
I will endeavour to proceed; You can only call Reno an “advanced guard” if he is ahead of the main body, which as we no he was not, I am not sure on this but, didn’t the two battalions (Custer & Reno) ride side by side down Reno creek separated by the creek itself? So up to then Reno was in advance of nobody (except the pack train of course), once in the valley he was on his unbeknown on his own, because now the two battalions were in effect separated by a river, trees and a line of bluffs. Now the point is this; why did Custer cut loose from Reno, he must have had great faith in the Major and his 140+ force to draw the hostiles out towards him and either defeat them in the field or contain them, thus giving him and five companies free reign to conduct any manoeuvre they wanted, and in this case he wanted to get behind the village. Ian. Ian,
GAC viewed the hostiles in the valley as a covering defensive screen that he wanted Reno to engage whilst he got around it via the eastern bluffs and at the assumed dispersing/scattering village behind it....?
Obviously that hypothesis would not excuse GAC's negligence in not sending messengers to inform Reno (and Benteen and McDougall) of an altered attack.
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 7:47:47 GMT -6
DC, the NA's may have had no intended flanks, but when they attacked Reno they in fact had 2 flanks, amorphous or not.
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 7:51:28 GMT -6
DC, the NA's may have had no intended flanks, but when they attacked Reno they in fact had 2 flanks, amorphous or not. Regards, Tom Tom,
And, whilst Reno's own right flank was somewhat anchored, Reno's own left flank was left precariously dangling in the air....
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 7:52:05 GMT -6
WO, why would send messengers to inform Reno, Benteen, and McDougall of altered plan when he never took the time to discuss the original plan.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 7:57:20 GMT -6
DC, the NA's may have had no intended flanks, but when they attacked Reno they in fact had 2 flanks, amorphous or not. Regards, Tom Tom,
And, whilst Reno's own right flank was somewhat anchored, Reno's own left flank was left precariously dangling in the air....
WO
Agreed, and that may be a bad on Reno's part, but I am not sure he would have proceeded that way had he known there was going to be no support immediately to his rear.
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 8:05:49 GMT -6
Tom,
Reno had little option but to stop and deploy a skirmish line, once the size of the non-fleeing opposition was apparent.
Given the expected close support of two more battalions, Reno's actual deployment was not unorthodox/unreasonable.
Reno was never going to cover the entire valley with 3 companies and a few scouts. Without support, it was only a matter of time before his left flank was turned.
I vaguely recall that French's company was numerically strong, and likely to be the real reason why seniority was interrupted in that Weir went with Benteen and French went with Reno (not the other way around, as strict ranking would have dictated) rather than GAC wanting Weir with Benteen. Reno's 3 companies (MAG) were circa 140 men, Benteen's 3 companies (HDK) were circa 115 men.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 8:14:05 GMT -6
WO, why would send messengers to inform Reno, Benteen, and McDougall of altered plan when he never took the time to discuss the original plan. Regards, Tom Tom,
GAC should certainly have advised Reno that he was no longer in close support. I think that is uncontroversial.
Better late than never, GAC should have advised Benteen and McDougall on what he was planning on doing (however vague, and in general terms).
Benteen would have at least then ascertained that he was Reno's "fireman" and, should Reno be defeated before any link-up, he was the only force that might deploy between the village and McDougall/Mathey.
WO
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Post by fred on Jan 13, 2015 8:22:28 GMT -6
This whole thread illustrates my problem with giving military jargon priority over thought structure. This is an extremely valid point. I only wish everyone would accept it. Like DC, I have been harping on this point for years. The jargon is utterly meaningless and irrelevant. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 13, 2015 8:30:51 GMT -6
One of the big mistakes I think GAC made was... When you get my book, you will note I make the claim GAC made three mistakes proving fatal. Anything else is ancillary. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 13, 2015 8:39:30 GMT -6
When is the first time Kanipe's story was recorded? Beth and Chris, 1903. Kanipe wrote an article published in the magazine of the Historical Society of Montana. Walter Camp interviewed him for the first time on June 16 and 17, 1908. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 13, 2015 8:52:45 GMT -6
Weir accomplished nothing because he didn't have the support of Benteen. Utter nonsense. This is nothing but a made-up opinion based on absolutely no fact, no support, no nothing. I must tell you, Scarface. That comment is one of the most ludicrous I have ever read. You really need to do some more work before you reached conclusions like that. First of all, you need to define "trot." According to the cavalry manual, a trot was 6 MPH. Benton moved considerably faster, and if you know anything about horse speeds, you will understand a trot is considered as fast as 10 MPH, well above the manual's definition of a gallop. Next... Weir only went ahead of Benteen when he left the morass and Benteen caught up and passed him within a couple minutes. Weir being first to Reno is utter bullshit, and if that's what you are convinced of, then you really need to go back to the drawing board. Absolutely, completely, and utterly false. If you are convinced of this and have no room to change you have wasted your money purchasing my book. "A few hours..."? What do you think you are dealing with here? A two-week FTX? C'mon, Scarface. You're smarter than all this... I hope. This post is absolute nonsense. Best wishes, Fred.
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