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Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2014 9:54:01 GMT -6
The Bulge was and is not trivia Tom as you know, but your point is well made. Having said that I am not sure that this seeming digression is unrelated to LBH or to Fred's evidently outstanding book (evidently because Santa and the eight tiny have yet to make their appearance here in the high desert). Here is my point, not as a counter, just a point. The Bulge and LBH are related in that both were failures of intelligence. They were failures not because the relevant information was not there. They were failures in not accepting what was there and developing it into intelligence .At LBH it was we are superior and the Indians will run (a prevailing attitude). At the Bulge it was we are superior (at least in numbers and amount of resources) and they are beaten, on their last legs. Preconceptions have killed more people than any other battlefield cause.
Everything we do in the study of battle, big or small, must revolve around prevailing attitudes. MacDonald's attitude in that small snipit Ian offered from his book, is that these people are dangerous, they still have bite, and are not afraid to use it. When you get to the final chapters, when he is commanding Company G you see a different MacDonald, full of confidence, but still aware of the potential for the isolated bite back. You can see his transformation from the inexperienced replacement commander to strong confident leader. You can see his growing love and respect for his soldiers, wanting them to be remembered by a complete mention in his work. Company Commander is a work that makes Band of Brothers seem comic book fare.
All battles render after battle lessons, they all therefore are related. Armies are not once and done. They must learn and relearn the same lessons with each passing generation, and like information it must be used to become intelligence.
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 2, 2014 10:30:14 GMT -6
Chuck, back to the book then. Before I joined the board, the last thread I read was regarding Company C on the 25th. For the most part a great thread, with that said and with the interest Chris has in the gap I am not sure we shouldn't revisit it. I think Fred's book and timeline would be valuable reference to start with. Is it possible that Custer was fixed before C, about the same time as C, or a good bit after? Was there any way at all, that any initiative could have been regained after this point in the battle, and if so by whom and how? What could/should have CIL done differently? Dumb questions I know and probably needs to be with other thread. Your answer could go there if you wish.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2014 10:55:31 GMT -6
Tom the expression is Find-Fix-Fight-Finish. The Fix, the second of the Holy Quartet, does not mean automatic defeat. It means that the force so fixed is locked in place, unable to maneuver. The Fight and Finish must come and only when the Finish bell is rung can we say that all possibility of salvaging from a fix is over. It is possible during the fight phase, to lose a fix. It depends on how you the fixer conducts the fight, and the capacity of the fixed force to sustain the fight.
Going back to that ever troublesome Bulge for the historical example. The 101st Airborne was fixed (as a division mind you, the subordinate elements could still maneuver inside the ring)at Bastogne. They could not maneuver out of encirclement. It was in the fighting the fix where the Germans failed, and failed badly. The "fortified goose egg" at St Vith was similar but not a complete fix.
The normal outcome of a fix is destruction, but not always, so yes the force so fixed may regain the initiative depending on how well the fixer fights and finishes. At LBH a reversal and regain is beyond doubtful approaching near certainty because of numbers. They were just too great I am thinking and neither Custer or Keogh had what advantage a prepared position could offer.
CIL fought a positional rather than a mobile defense. That is the only thing I can see that could have been done differently. Custer could have as well, but it would have been more difficult due to initial close proximity.
Always remember there is only one reason to defend in war, that being to buy time and gather resources to resume the offensive. That is a hard one to swallow, but while defense is the strongest form of war, offense is the decisive form.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 2, 2014 10:55:49 GMT -6
Soon I will be able to converse with you all about the contents of "Strategy for Defeat" just give me another 24 days and see what Father Christmas brings me.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2014 11:45:19 GMT -6
That old bugger stops at your place first Ian. That gives you about eight hours to both digest and report your findings to me. Time is a factor, always a factor, and just because your Father Christmas stole the march on my Santa Claus don't you dare get cocky. Just you remember that the big guy is tracked by the good folks at NORAD, right up the street from me, and I do have friends in high enough places to matter. I'm watching you buster.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 2, 2014 13:54:43 GMT -6
You are a cunning man Mr Quincannon, very cunning indeed, I will report my findings to you by the power of the net (Norad’s out of my league) on the big day when I wish you and your better half a Merry Christmas, I would do it by card but “Little London” or “The Newport of the Rockies” is too big for my reindeer to cover to locate the “House of Chuck”, it is the least I can do for all your help with the divisional histories on my web site.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 2, 2014 15:17:58 GMT -6
What you are really saying is that I had better get on the stick and finish the last few divisions so we can start on the Armies and Corps. I have been very busy in the Rocky Mountain version of Electric Boat these last weeks, but I can take the hint.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 3, 2014 7:32:34 GMT -6
Chuck "really" all I was suggesting is that I am posting some stuff to Fred and I thought of the idea of sending you a Xmas card at the same time, lets face it I can only send so many photos of Jacob and I holding up placards before it gets boring, and he has asked me if we are doing it again this year.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 3, 2014 8:29:02 GMT -6
Your Jacob is a treat for the eyes, and a promise that everything will be right with the world.
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Post by chris on Dec 10, 2014 16:01:24 GMT -6
Fred, Another question. Here's a quote from your book:
Around the same time— 3:53 p.m.— Crazy Horse had reached the head-cut of Deep Ravine and was about to mount the final 525 yards up to Battle Ridge and through the gap in the ridgeline, inserting himself between Keogh and Custer’s commands. At a speed of 10 miles per hour, it would take the Oglala only two minutes to crest the ridge and bridge the gap, and within another four minutes— 3: 59 p.m.— trailed by some 200 warriors, to reach the ridgeline just east of Battle Ridge, chopping up part of Company I along the way. Shortly, he would repeat the foray in the opposite direction, finishing the job.
Wagner, Frederic C. III (2014-10-24). The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn: A Military and Timing Analysis of the Battle (Kindle Locations 5170-5175). McFarland. Kindle Edition.
My question only relates to why CH would cross the river and head up Deep Ravine. What could CH have seen (or suspected) from the valley to suggest he go that way? Best, c.
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Post by fred on Dec 10, 2014 17:57:55 GMT -6
Around the same time— 3:53 p.m.— Crazy Horse had reached the head-cut of Deep Ravine and was about to mount the final 525 yards up to Battle Ridge and through the gap in the ridgeline, inserting himself between Keogh and Custer’s commands. At a speed of 10 miles per hour, it would take the Oglala only two minutes to crest the ridge and bridge the gap, and within another four minutes— 3: 59 p.m.— trailed by some 200 warriors, to reach the ridgeline just east of Battle Ridge, chopping up part of Company I along the way. Shortly, he would repeat the foray in the opposite direction, finishing the job. My question only relates to why CH would cross the river and head up Deep Ravine. What could CH have seen (or suspected) from the valley to suggest he go that way? Chris, Ford B was the main crossing point for the Cheyenne and by the time Crazy Horse reached it-- after dithering around in the village-- that ford was in fairly heavy use. I estimate he reached and passed it at about 3:38 PM. At that time, Custer was already on his way toward Ford D and Keogh had deployed his command on Calhoun Hill and along Battle Ridge. That deployment could be seen from Ford B... but Custer's move farther north could not. Crazy Horse moved north, crossing at Deep Ravine, believing he had closed the trap, completely encircling the troops. He had no idea Custer was still farther north. Custer being farther north still, must have been something of a surprise to Horse. When I put this timeline together, this whole thing gelled so beautifully, I could hardly believe it. The speeds are quite reasonable and fit perfectly with distances and the terrain, and everything fits snugly into the various Indian accounts. As strange as it may seem, I am more sure of most of the Custer battle timing than I am of the valley fighting, though that also fits rather well with accounts. I hope that answers your question...? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on Dec 10, 2014 18:25:27 GMT -6
Fred, it does. Thanks for the fast reply. I've mentioned before that I'll have more questions. Try to think of them as preparation for Q and A's you'll get at seminars - some good, some annoying and others you'll describe later to close friends! Best, c.
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Post by Beth on Dec 10, 2014 19:13:57 GMT -6
Those are spectacular--they remind me somewhat of mountain laurel. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Dec 10, 2014 19:21:49 GMT -6
Beth Hoya (Greek) Saxa (Latin) = WHAT ROCKS. Such are the benefits of a Jesuit education.
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Post by fred on Dec 10, 2014 20:00:59 GMT -6
Fred, it does. Thanks for the fast reply. I've mentioned before that I'll have more questions. Try to think of them as preparation for Q and A's you'll get at seminars - some good, some annoying and others you'll describe later to close friends! Close friends like you, right? Any questions you may have, Chris. Any time... you know that. And that goes for all my friends on this board. Best wishes, Fred.
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