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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2017 3:23:08 GMT -6
Collum's biogragh is will give a skeleton outline of his service if anyone holds a copy.The Google Books PREVIEW linked has Porter, Nye, Aspinwall, Craycroft, etc.
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Post by curious on Nov 2, 2017 8:55:38 GMT -6
He missed Custer's major "campaigns" (Washita, Black Hills), as ordered elsewhere or on long leave. In 1867-8 he commanded Fort Wallace at its peak of action and force levels. Wasnt that the "fightenest fort in the West" defending settlers and overland communications? Not glamorous, just routine cat and mouse, but deadly if mistakes made. That is how experience and mutual respect are accumulated. I realise there are so many unknowns.
Sorry to go back to the medals issue again.That one set of Keoghs replacement medals went back to the family seems most plausible. I know there is a big debate ongoing for years as to what medals he had on him. The points I make here are tweaks not made previiysly, as far as Iiknow. Keogh we know had also ordered a miniature set, and they would have fitted nicely in a leather pouch to carry around on person. These were not found on him or in his belongings back at FAL. So what was round his neck? Agnus dei is often used as a scapular. One report said he wore a crucifix on a chain. Two things to say here. First an Agnus Dei is a very specific form of medal. If someone, Freeman first, then others referred to an Agnus Dei, it very likely was just that. Nothing but an Agnus Dei can be called such. However the Agnus Dei can also incorporate a crucifix. So both reports are likely correct. Was a catholic symbol sufficient to protect him? Given no shortage of such charms on the field, it just seems too easy an interpretation. To repeat, many Sioux knew about catholicism, not least from de Smet, who had baptised many, and was close to Sitting Bull. There are photos of Sitting Bull with a crucifix and rosary beads. There is also a photo of Sitting Bull wearing what looks very like an order of St Gregory. More plausible explanations for me are a link of Keogh to de Smet, which I am researching, or/and distinguished bravery setting him apart from almost everyone else on the US side, certainly among the officers. He was killed by Sioux, for his belongings ended up with them, but that they did not mark him cannot be plausibly put down to his bag of charms being above all the others.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 2, 2017 17:46:04 GMT -6
The item which Freeman recorded on Keogh's neck was subsequently recovered by Benteen, so there is an area for some research. Freeman did not recover it, Benteen did. The post doctor's wife at FAL was Linda Slaughter who played some part in the civilisation of the frontier and an important role in developing Montana history and independance. Amongst the Historical Society's records is stuff by her about DeSmet, Sitting Bull, FAL and lots really. She was the Post Mistress blamed for the scandal which engulfed Grant's Presidency and of course was not responsible for anything other than keeping quiet knowing that the newspaper reporter who infiltrated Fort Rice and broke the story, would have been killed if she spoke up and revealed him. It's incredibly interesting stuff. The newspaper owner, Clement Lounsberry was involved in te plot to uncover the scandal. He reported the battle to the New York Tribune when Far West arrived on the night of the 5th July. The statements that Keogh lay unmolested in death should be taken circumspectly as we know that Custer was actually in quite poor shape with spikes stuck into his ears, shot in the head and an arrow shoved up his richard. His hair was not cut short and was at least shoulder length immediately before the battle and therefore to have been short afterwards, it was removed in some fashion. Keogh wore a cross. That is really all that we know or can believe other than Paint's Brown and you are skeptical there. I don't claim to have covered everything that there is since there is much although not that much. compared to some others. Context is relative and I do not fathom a tribal telling attributing Black Robe status on the basis of a cross around the neck because it cannot have been unique to Keogh - as you surmise. I'm not saying that he wore a poncho type cleric'svest. I am saying that it cannot be ruled out. Fiske was the post photographer at Fort Yates with an interest in history so how much was him and how much came from his informant is moot but that is the fun, art, and entire skill of this battle's study. Custer did not disobey his orders and yet that is still a vociferous and bitter debate with detractors. It can get very silly at times and instructive. So, about the poncho..... don't rule it out. Simplest garment that there is. archive.org/details/contributionstohvol4hist1903richElizabeth Kimber was fascinated with Keogh and did some considerable research. Brian Pohanka also. Montana Historicals on Archive.org Long day, it is stuff Linda published with ND's historical doings which came to mind. www.history.nd.gov/nhdinnd/turningpoints/LindaSlaughter.htmlApologies - archive.org/search.php?query=State%20Historical%20Society%20of%20North%20Dakota plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.gen.035
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Post by curious on Nov 3, 2017 9:31:04 GMT -6
Interesting that you mention that Keogh's non mutilation could be invented, as per Custer. There was a telegramme from AAGen of the Dept of the South Mckeever on July 6th to his counterpart in the Dept of Missouri, short but asking specifically and only about Keogh's fate, mentioning that "friends back East" were concerned. Keogh was socially connected to Eastern senior military and oligarchic circles, and of course the long suspected romantic involvement with Cornelia Throop Martin. I am open minded. On the other hand the "serene" Custer story was gradually, and obliquely debunked from early on. No such debunking as regards Keogh.
Thanks for the sources.
A question: does a NA warrior who counts coup decide what happens to the victim? Is the plundering of bodies a free for all?
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Post by herosrest on Nov 3, 2017 10:06:30 GMT -6
www.facebook.com/MylesWalterKeogh/The couping ritual, if you like, seems to have involved upto four individuals 'laying hands' on their adversary or victim. A battle honour type thing for bragging rites in the lifelong oral recanting which was the historical tradition. Recovery of items from the dead seems to have been chaotic and I expect that if there was a horse or horses nearby then attention switched quickly. They were not material people and that, pardon the term, is a very differnt mindset to that they fought. The women and youngsters scavenged the field without a shadow of a doubt and besides gaining a scalp, ammunition and a weapon if needed, the fighters seem to have been simply ecstatic in what they had accomplished. I do believe that the Fetterman matter was deeply imprinted in the Plains folks psyche as the root ofa famous political victory ten years before and they hoped for that again. Briefly, with Custer's head on their pole (so to speak) that prospect was reality. Many students of the battle wonder what was going on after the five companies were overwhelmed in short order and before Benteen started waving to attract attention. Well, the Sioux and Cheyennes were beside themselves celebrating a repeat of Red Clouds War. If I remember correctly, the Dixon book...... Vanishing Race, offers insight with the way of the Brave culture. It's not overly done but is worthwhile. First few pages of introduction which everyone ignores to dive into Custer, the scouts and the Chiefs who fought.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 3, 2017 11:22:26 GMT -6
<I do believe that the Fetterman matter was deeply imprinted in the Plains folks psyche as the root ofa famous political victory ten years before and they hoped for that again>
The Fetterman Fight (1866) included numerous Cheyenne who fled north to join the Sioux after the Sand Creek Massacre. The description by Carrington of the dead soldiers is very graphic and one has to consider that many of the disfigurement of the soldiers may have been done by the Cheyenne in revenge for the slaughter and mutilation of their relatives by Colorado Militiamen.
In addition many Plains Indians believed that you entered the "next life" in the condition you were in at death. Ergo if you were chopped up you wouldn't have a very good afterlife. Obviously revenge and taking out their frustration on US soldiers for continually hounding them and killing their relatives played a major factor.
The Scout Isiah Dorman who was married to a Sioux was especially given the "treatment" by Indians for being a traitor. Bloody Knife who was killed in the Reno Fight was a mixed blood Indian, with a Sioux parent. It was said his head was cut off and carried by the braids by two young women.
Tom Custer was especially given the special treatment and it was said he could only be ID'd by his tattoos. Maybe the Cheyenne who felt he mistreated their women on the Rez paid him back.
Fred Girard who survived the fight had a bounty put on his head by Sitting Bull . . . if Girard was killed he probably would have ended up mince meat.
Let's not forget many Reservation Indians who had dealings with soldiers and scouts and later joined their brethren at the LBH may have recognized dead soldiers/scouts from their time on the Rez and felt the soldiers deserved no respect and thus the many mutilations and disfigurement.
Lots of reasons for mutilating the dead: cultural, revenge, frustration, anger, etc. The White Man wasn't exactly kind to the dead of Indians either.
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Post by curious on Nov 3, 2017 19:23:19 GMT -6
When NA accounts speak of the battle being akin to a buffalo hunt, I read that as not just mounted warriors chasing running soldiers, but also the bloody mess of butchering afterwards. Some had long strips of flesh cut off (I dont mean the trademark thigh slashing), just like NA cutting up buffalo. Agreed that much mutilation of dead was driven by religious belief, but also no doubt torture, and the psychological warfare aspect is not to be ignored. When Custer orders the desecration of NA dead, seems he is engaging in psy warfare. All soldiers knew the consequences of capture. There were plenty of precedents of torture by mutilation, and also by White militia and settlers, but none as far as I know of NAs capturing a lot of soldiers and releasing them unharmed. The certain prospect of torture, mutilation and death if the fight goes against you creates a spooking effect and makes for individual tipping points in action itself.
I accept that there are different cultural concepts of what is "material". NA culture was highly materialistic in its own fashion and approximating rapidly to Whites due to contact in some respects. They valued not just useful things, weapons horses boots etc. but also beautiful things, and symbolicly important things, scalps shirts leggings hats etc. Note what Terry's aide de camp says about some of the NA dead after the battle: "their camp strewn with Buffalo robes fine dressed hides gorgeous & valuable costumes & trinkets one tepee containing the bodies of nine chiefs painted gorgeously arranged etc". That's just for the afterlife. Almost all material items seem to have been taken from the dead soldiers, as well as spent cartridge cases from the field. Some paper money was torn up by some. Other NAs knew the value of money. Thousands of dollars were found in American Horse's camp, and could not all come from LBH, or could it?
Apart from coup counting bringing a warrior honour, I just wondered if it bestowed any other rights as regards what happens to the victim's stuff and body. I read that Teeman's body was also not marked and was found on LSH not overlooked in the long grass somewhere. Teeman is supposed to be the soldier who helped Rain in the Face. Is that off mark?
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Post by herosrest on Nov 4, 2017 15:45:50 GMT -6
That is the thinking with regards to Teeman and I forget whether RiF ever acknowledged this. Of course the interactions with civilized trading left its mark and that is the way of progress. The horse comes to mind and an entire culture which existed as nomads because of it. Had Sitting Bull had his way then the tribes would be roaming still. These clashes of cultures have been ruthlessly discriminatory through countless milennia and something virtually unique in this context took place with the 20th Century. Conquer, pacify, and hand the territory back to its inhabitants. Very unusual....
Be well.
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