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Post by quincannon on Aug 29, 2014 17:28:23 GMT -6
Whatever gave you the idea I was negotiating with you, or attempting to do so?
Your experiences are of no concern of mine, nor are the marks those experiences have made on your character.
I accused you of verbal abuse for no other reason than you thought you could do it with impunity. You cannot with impunity, and will be confronted about it when it occurs while I have breath in my body. If you don't like the confrontation, remove the cause. I really don't care if you may think you have reason for it. I feel I had reason to confront this other guy as well. There is no difference here, although you attempted to publicly embarrass me about that issue, so I am turning the embarrassment in your direction for the same reason. You are either a man, and it will stop, or a hypocrite. It is your choice.
It is really to bad that those experiences of yours never gave you the opportunity to acquire the virtue of loyalty to persons or institutions, a virtue which makes those collective persons or institutions stronger together than they would ever be apart . Indeed it is a shame. There is no greater crime in all of humanity to betray that loyalty, once given, except when the loyalty is gained by virtue of deception, which in itself is a disloyal and despicable act. It is a form of human treason, that I will not be a part of.
So just for the record DC, Will can say anything he wishes to me good or bad, at any time, for I know he does not say it for either the purposes of pushing me up or down, but for the sole purpose, that he feels it needs to be said, absent any malice whatsoever. You may not.
What you should really try is having a social life.
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Post by fred on Aug 29, 2014 19:16:42 GMT -6
Really? You should have been around a few years ago when our "Swiss" member attacked anyone and everyone who didn't agree that Custer was the Golden Boy of All Time. I think he eventually ended up on a roof with a rifle! Boy, remember those days, Horse? How have you been? Hope things are going well for you and you had as beautiful a summer there as we've had in New York. Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 30, 2014 6:23:48 GMT -6
Well I am not going to dwell over any issues with darkcloud because I have said it all many times before, but to make myself clear, I don’t do dialog with him anymore and this is down to two reasons;
1/ everything revolves around him, and due to that you cannot get a balanced debate, he is also a hypocrite, which doesn’t sit well with me. 2/ he has a serious flaw in his character, and I feel uncomfortable trying to work with him, now this could be down to things in his personal life, which is none of my business.
So I stay clear and to be honest I have never really needed him, as there are many on this board who’s knowledge and fresh ideas keep me posting.
One last thing and it concerns Mulligan, my first post to him was to bring to light his attitude towards Fred, but this has now resolved itself, the second post was a joke, plain a simple, but it seems that British humour doesn’t travel very well.
Ian.
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Post by curious on Oct 27, 2017 15:54:26 GMT -6
I do not understand the reticence to discuss battlefield mutilation practices, whether by NAs or US forces and Whites generally. After battle mutilation serves a number of important functions -religious belief of groups, individual grievances, revenge, score settling, sadism, and also to strike at the morale of the comrades who survived and cleaned up. We know the Sioux and other NAs slashed thighs, bashed in faces, sliced off body parts scalped etc...This was almost universal at LBH. Sexual displaying of soldiers bodies was also found at the Fetterman battle aftermath. The official line from the beginning was that only GA Custer and Keogh were not mutilated. There are no rumours about arrows in Keogh. The very importance of this matter is that it lends even more curiousity to the question of why Keogh remained intact.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2017 3:02:36 GMT -6
There is insight to Keogh's fate from the battle account of Paints Brown. An Ogalala who fought 7th Cavalry he was also present among the Indian Police contingent who arrested Sitting Bull during the Ghost Dance disturbance.
Keogh wore a holy vest or scapulary and was considered to be a Black Robe. One can imagine him in a poncho type Papal vestige ala Clint Eastwood and with Agne Dei about his neck. He was wakan tanka or more deservedly God's Champion. You will take Communion, OK!
Thus he was not overly molested once his magic was discovered.
The account is published in 'Taming of the Sioux' by ....... Ho hum..... ??
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2017 6:19:57 GMT -6
There is insight to Keogh's fate from the battle account of Paints Brown. An Ogalala who fought 7th Cavalry he was also present among the Indian Police contingent who arrested Sitting Bull during the Ghost Dance disturbance. Keogh wore a holy vest or scapulary and was considered to be a Black Robe. One can imagine him in a poncho type Papal vestige ala Clint Eastwood and with Agne Dei about his neck. He was wakan tanka or more deservedly God's Champion. You will take Communion, OK! Thus he was not overly molested once his magic was discovered. The account is published in 'Taming of the Sioux' by ....... Ho hum..... ?? T'was Taming of the Sioux by Frank bennett Fiske E 99 D1F54
Frank B. Fiske Old Fort Yates N.D. April 1917 Bismarck Tribune Bismarck North Dakota
EXPLANATORY
No historian of prominence should presume to ask the public to take his work as the last word on the subject which it treats. There is bound to be some one who will find inaccuracies and deficiencies, and the whole work may be condemned on account of them. There never was a history written that is absolutely correct, so I suppose mine must be a little off on a few trivial matters. A deep student of the ethnology, phonology, psychology and anthropology of the Sioux may (I say may, advisedly) find these defects. To him I offer no apologies, he has enough ologies now, and I don't wish to burden him with more of them.
History is essentially didactical, indeed it is, and we soon tire of its prosiness, its unpicturesque display of data and long-winded statistics. However, there are some individuals who are ultra-pedantic, and to whom nothing appeals but what is strictly utilitarian. To such persons I commend certain parts of this work, while to the others — the great majority — the balance of it may prove entertaining. The absence of humor I greatly deplore, for it just seems that I cannot think up anythin' funny. But the reader may find a great deal to laugh about after all, if he is inclined to be critical.
The old timers, God bless 'em, always take an important part in an historical work. But they seldom agree with each other. There is a psychological reason for this, as there is for most anything we do not clearly understand.
My explanation of it is that they do not remember things with the same degree of accuracy and reasoning power. Their view points were not identical, so they fade away from the scene of historical interest with a conception of what happened at variance with what other survivors retained. Some day a historian may succeed in straightening these much mooted matters out, but I have neither the time nor the patience to do it. As it is I am presenting in this work an entertaining and very nearly complete account of The Taming Of The Sioux.
The illustrations are from original negatives made by me, and the drawings are by my young friend Francis Zahn (Holy Star), a part Sioux of great talent.
Frank Fiske. Old Fort Yates, N.D. March 1st, 1917.
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Post by curious on Oct 28, 2017 17:15:09 GMT -6
Paints Brown is old and seemingly quite drunk in telling his story. He mentions that they came across "Captain Keogh" (did "They" know him ?), and they left him unmolested because he was wearing a scapular, and because "we said he was a Black Robe man".There are two types of scapular. One is the monastic or priest type - a cloth covering of the body, usually black linen, and sometimes with a sacred heart. I assume this is what you think Paints Brown refers to. The other type is the devotional scapular worn by many catholics, which can be medallion, paper, cloth or wood, or plastic small, usually rectangular, objects with devotional images. It is not the same thing as an Agnus Dei devotional medal, but it isnt inconceivable that both can be worn in a pouch. It is simply implausible that Keogh was wearing a monastic scapular. Apart from being unbearably hot in those conditions, would be noticed by his comrades, would be inappropriate for him to wear as non member of religious order etc. a devotional catholic wears the medallion type. And there lies the puzzle. There is no great "magic" here. Many sioux were catholics or were aware of catholic devotional practices. Some sioux may themselves have been wearing scapulars. The point is many of the soldiers would have worn scapulars or other devotional medals. Keogh was found naked except for socks, and wounds to knee and head. Benteen removed a medal on a gold chain from around his neck - plausibly the devotional scapular. It seems to me more plausible that the scapular on a GOLD chain is left untouched for the same reason that his body is not molested. Either, he did something extraordinarily impressive during the battle, or they knew "he was a Black Robe man". Or both apply. It seems to me that "Black Robe man" can only most plausibly refer to an association of Keogh with de Smet. It is not a literal reference to him wearing a black robe.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2017 19:12:03 GMT -6
Well divested. We do not know the context of Fiske's interpretation of an item which is either or. I did mull this over and realised that even if Paints Brown was dug up and questioned all we would probably get is farted on. It can be either or and the context is robe. Both the item of jewelery or garment are valid.
Considering uniforms then buckskin jacket and trouzers was and remains non-issue field wear and would have been at least rather warm and sweated onto and in, in the field both days and nights. The garment is basically a poncho type blanket with hole cut in it and perfect to shield a rider from dust and sun and possibly rain until soden soggy wet. Flip a coin.
The article is interesting first hand record from an Indian Police member. He is not the only excitable drunk involved with the battle then or now.
Whilzt Benteen recovered the medal from Keogh it was Freeman who first arrived to the Captain's remains. Freeman Journal. Be well.
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Post by brahms4 on Oct 28, 2017 19:15:34 GMT -6
I read that Keogh was awarded the Medaglia di Pro Petri Sede by Pope Pius IX for Keogh`s service in the Papal Army.Evan Connell,in his book Son of The Morning Star,states that it was larger than than other religious emblems to be found that day.He said the medal would have been in a leather pouch not unlike what the NA would keep their powerful tokens in.Connell also wrote that Keogh was awarded the Cross of the Order of St Gregory,which may be what started the story about the cross on a golden chain.Various NA told of a lone officer who fought very bravely to Gibbon`s scout,Will Logan.Logan was told that Keogh dropped six braves with his pistol before he died.Maybe,if true,that is the reason for the respect shown towards Keogh`s remains along with the large medal in a leather pouch.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 28, 2017 19:18:42 GMT -6
The gist of Logan's account is that Keogh was last to die. Custer was the first.
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Post by curious on Oct 30, 2017 15:09:40 GMT -6
The standard story to account for Keogh then is either that he wore a holy "Clint Eastwood" poncho, or his two papal medals, or both, and this "magic" impressed the NAs. I think I have dealt with the poncho myth. The assumption is that the NA fighters did not know Keogh, or others for that matter, and were not familiar with Catholic practices. Two errors. It is not only implausible that they did not know an officer, but some had probably seen in real life and many would have heard about his papal medals before. They knew the fighting history of their enemy. Catholic or Catholic influenced Sioux, not least Sitting Bull, would have taken great interest in medals awarded by the Holy Father. The medals were looted, the scapulary nb on a gold chain, was not. Sitting Bull seems to have been the recipient of one medal. Keoghs bloodied gauntlets, guidon and rifle? were found at American Horses camp at Slim Buttes. What happened or did not happen to Keogh seems to me to have wider importance for understanding where the main battle occurred. Distinguished bravery, leadership or personal respect are the most obvious reasons for NA non mutilation. I suppose those are types of "magic" after all.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 30, 2017 16:07:59 GMT -6
Grinnell put some of his research into copy in 1915 and I offer up his take on the fight with Crook for insight related to magic and a context relevant to Keogh's slayers. Now, a poncho keeps the dust off and I have not been able to convince myself yet that Keogh was wearing buckskin. I doubt it was his thing but haven't discovered anything definitive. There were immense efforts, in relative sense, by the Churches to swell their host of the Plains and mightily respected were those pilgrims. The rituals intrinsic to warriorhood could be immensely complicated and hereditary and Grinnell examples this as do I, in the context of warrior magic and painting up and even painting brown. The Fighting CheyennesKeogh was not well known to the Dakota host. They did not know him. I doubt the Cheyenne knew him. Of course there would be some Summer roamers from FAL who would have seen him that summer. Hey, Two Bears! That Long Knife over there - he knows the Pope!
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Post by curious on Oct 31, 2017 15:04:58 GMT -6
That is a great looking poncho, but very Hollywood. Nothing like a scapulary vest. If he wore that thing it would have been commented on, and it would make him a target for everyone on the enemy side. Like if he rode a white horse. No, the scapular was round his neck on a chain. Sure, papal medals were returned to the family. But Keogh had himself replaced the originals, lost in a hotel fire. It was a hot dusty day. Some officers had removed buckskins and were in shirts. Keogh had spent most of his active service against NAs fighting Cheyenne.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 31, 2017 16:43:49 GMT -6
I don't doubt that Keogh carried a cross and it was left in place by Freeman, who arrived to his remains before Benteen. His journal was long in publishing and a useful record linked.It was such simplicity to fold a woollen blanket in half and slit the fold to go overhead that it should not be refuted. I accept that black blankets may have been hard to come by but one of the few uncontested realities is the dust. Oh that Nolan had left memoirs or a book of his campaign and the battleground. Linked is Nikita Barlow's take on Keogh's service. I believe that he like Reno and many of the 7th, escorted Northern border surveys.
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Post by noggy on Nov 1, 2017 2:34:15 GMT -6
Keogh had spent most of his active service against NAs fighting Cheyenne. How active was his service in 1866-69? He wasn`t at Washita which leaves out the biggest engagement the 7th saw during their campaign against the Cheyenne on the Southern Plains, and Fred Wagner makes a point out of how little he participated in the campaigning. He missed both the 73 and 74 campaigns as well. He seems to fairly often have been on leave, for one reason or another, during his time with the 7th. I may be wrong, but I think he had requested another leave before the 76 Campaign, but it was turned down. Anyone remember if this is correct?
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