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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 5, 2014 20:46:32 GMT -6
Well. You have evidence for your scenario, but these accounts are quoting each other to a large degree. Also, you skim over this: "Only a few of the men could be recognized", yet you say 70 odd percent were recognized? Isn't that a conflict you can't ignore?
Again: I certainly cannot prove you wrong, I just fear you'll get like Gray as things clicked together, his feeling of correctness flowered, momentum built and - as we've found - errors can click together as well.
Except mine. Nobody likes MY theory.........I'm going home. That's MY ball.......
And I still see reason that those heading up might have taken cover in the Ravine if hit from the side or provided corpses that were along the top.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 20:50:57 GMT -6
Of the accounts about Deep Ravine you quote, Fred, how many appear no later than the RCOI? DC, Not many!! Yep. No question about it. Benteen, F., CPT-- Benteen did not recognize Dr. Lord’s body. July 4, 1876, letter to his wife. Thompson, R., LT-- K/6I-- Dr. Lord lay about twenty feet southeast of Custer on side of the hill. Camp interview, February 14, 1911; Custer in '76, 248. Godfrey, E. S., LT-- “I know [Godfrey’s emphasis] that Dr. Lord’s body was not identified. His pocket case was found, but nothing else to show for him.” Letter to Camp, May 3, 1909; On the LBH with Walter Camp, 69. Sweet, Owen J., CPT-- D/25I-- As for Dr. Lord, Sweet wrote, “To show an extreme case, one is that os Asst. Surgeon C. E. Lord, U. S. A., whose headstone is set in a group of four near the big deep-cut ravine. I found no mark to indicate where he fell, [but] in digging into the remains at this spot I found pieces of clothing, a staff officer’s button or two which Dr. Lord was known to wear, hence the headstone was erected." Letter from Sweet to Walter Camp, November 24, 1912. On the Little Bighorn with Walter Camp, 127. Walter Camp-- An unidentified battle veteran said that Dr. Lord’s body was found in the ravine. Other officers claimed Lord was found, “on Custer Hill, some 20 feet southeast of Custer’s remains.” Camp letter to Godfrey, March 31, 1909; On the LBH with Walter Camp, 46; also FN 2. I agree, but this particular thing doesn't ring false with me. It was merely an observation that didn't feather Kanipe's cap. Yep. Smith fits my Ford B scenario; the C, I, L troops were refugees, so I have little trouble with that; and there were nine identified from F on LSH, plus two more not far from Deep Ravine, fitting in rather snugly with the F Company move to the "basin" area. But they didn't. They never got near Deep Ravine from the river. Who says they did? Indians ran UP the ravine to get across Battle Ridge into Keogh's troops, which they knew were there. Troops wouldn't want to get into the ravine because Indians were still crossing and using it as a firing position and a route to the ridge and the hill. I don't really disagree, otherwise we would have a lot more IDed and we would know who was found where. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 21:01:18 GMT -6
You guys are driving me crazy!!!... but these accounts are quoting each other to a large degree. I don't know about that, DC. Almost all these accounts are from different times, different places, without any chance to compare notes. 70% on LSH. Hardly anyone was IDed anyplace else. And how many from Deep Ravine? Was it 8? 8 of 28 is only 28.6%. Only a half-dozen or so were identified in the Keogh Sector, and other than Calhoun and Crittenden, no one on Calhoun Hill. That is why I have you! Why do you think I rely so much on QC, montrose, Andy, Tom, Chris, Ian, and a few others? I vet everything here. Who the hell else would put me through the wringer like this? Heck, I do; I like it a lot. I just think it's wrong, that's all. But you are one friggin' challenge!! Except no one was in there... until the very end. Deep Ravine was the end of the battle. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 21:11:53 GMT -6
Many years later I remembered those passages as I stood atop LSH. All I could mutter is sure they did, bullshit. I think the guy who wrote it was Mackinlay Kantor. Hey, I don't really disagree. It's ridiculous, isn't it? But what else could they do but try? Staying atop that hill meant certain death. But if 30 or so men could charge down the hillside-- as ludicrous as it may seem-- some of them, 4, 6, 8, mounted, and scatter Indians, maybe, just maybe, they could have reached safety. Remember, Indians "always" ran from concentrated attacks, right? Never confuse "hopeless" with "let's not try." If it were me, and I'm sitting near the top of that knoll, surveying the mayhem around me, I would grab my last 30 men and say, "Boys, we're not sitting here to get butchered, one by one. We're heading down to the river as fast as we can; I doubt we'll make it, but it's better than sitting here!" And off I would go. Yelling, screaming, brandishing my saber... whoops!... left that at home, dammit! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2014 21:29:32 GMT -6
Me I would go the other way. I've never been to Wisconsin, and it would seem this may be the appropriate time to visit, take in a ball game, have a couple of brews, commune with the natives. Maybe even a day at the beach. It's summer and while the Great Lakes don't have the appeal of Ocean City or Virginia Beach they will do in a pinch.
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Post by mac on Mar 6, 2014 1:09:28 GMT -6
I wonder what was waiting "the other way"? I think I remember DC suggesting there was a reception party waiting when the HQ group reached the summit. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 6, 2014 5:48:05 GMT -6
Fred, much to digest. Please don't think, I am siding with D.C. because I don't want him to take his ball. I just don't see those thirty or so running toward the river, can't buy it. You seem to indicate, that maybe it was the point of least resistance. They would surely realize that there was a village full of more people who wanted them dead. Chuck, I also think by that time Wisc. was out, because the last flight had already departed.
What I see is the body of troops that were hit in the side/flank and pushed harder than you think, while trying to get back together with the rest of the command. All the while being pushed farther away from it. I will give in on C.H. enveloping them from the north, but I am sure as I can be, without being there that those bodies were left on the way up.
Mac, your thoughts, were my thoughts, when I arrived at the board. Was Custer pushed into the jaws of death, at the hands of a party waiting for him at the top of the hill? The only map that I could produce, to that effect comes from a book by Herman Viola, "Little Bighorn Remembered". The untold Indian Story of Custer's Last Stand. The book was published in 1999. Viola is Curator Emeritus of the Smithsonian Institution. Main career focus is preservation of Native American culture and history. He draws on Curtis, Marquis, and extensive interviews with grandchildren and great grandchildren. The map I refer to is a latter day rendition and he never comes out and says that is the way it was.
Fred, you have done all the work, I have done a great deal of reading. You have moved me off of my center since I got here. I have not completely sold out, but you have given me reason to readjust my thinking.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2014 8:39:04 GMT -6
Please don't think, I am siding with D.C. because I don't want him to take his ball. Tom, No, no, no, no… that isn’t the way this works. You can side with whomever you want. Develop your own ideas and thoughts and theories. I am not on here to convince anyone to “side” with me, so get that out of your mind. I have used these boards—like I said earlier—to vet ideas and theories. Sometimes others have convinced me to change… and because of people like you, DC, QC, Montrose, and so many others, my ideas, coupled with all these accounts, have evolved into what they are now. And that doesn’t mean I can’t change; I just need more evidence to the contrary than what I can provide for myself. No… it was the “point” of last chance. What else would you have them do? Stand there? Not so; the village was nowhere near there. Its northern limit ended more than a mile away. And again, what do you do? Submit to certain death? If the odds are 1,000,000:1, don’t you still take the chance? Other than the first part of your sentence, this makes no sense. Why would they have been separated? Why would they be of the SSL? Why would they be near the ravine? Look at this: Eagle Bear—Oglala—“Many of our warriors rode into a ravine where Custer could not see them but through which he would have to pass to reach our village.” Interview appeared in an unidentified newspaper, forwarded in a field dispatch, September 25, 1936, Pine Ridge Reservation. The interpreter was a woman named Josephine. Hardorff, Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 188. … or do you just disregard that? There was no reason for troops to be there… other than at the end. Well, I disagree. I see neither tactical evidence/tactical reasoning, nor anecdotal evidence. There are too many Indian accounts of warriors moving up that ravine, well over ten feet deep, to claim troops used it as well. And how would they get there ahead of Custer? Indian strength built up gradually as Custer moved north and by the time he reached Cemetery Ridge, the forces arrayed against him were close to overwhelming, only the northern side being somewhat iffy. There are Indian accounts, as well, of troops being pushed over LSH and that may account for the one comment of Dr. Lord being found about twenty feet to the southeast of Custer. No other bodies were found there, however, and it is well known that the Indians had a firing position on a small knoll just to the east of LSH. Archaeological evidence, however, shows that position being fairly small. There is absolutely no evidence of any Indian presence atop LSH. Furthermore, why would Custer attempt to head up a hillside loaded with Indians if the “cover” of Deep Ravine were available? Or better yet, if there were so many Indians on top of LSH, why wouldn’t Custer head back down Cemetery Ridge? I have that book; what map are you referring to? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2014 8:42:30 GMT -6
I think I remember DC suggesting there was a reception party waiting when the HQ group reached the summit. Two hundred yards to the northeast... and probably just enough firepower to keep the troops on the hill's western slope. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 6, 2014 9:20:06 GMT -6
I have that book; what map are you referring to? Best wishes, Fred. Page 18
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 6, 2014 13:34:38 GMT -6
Concerning the areas around deep ravine, cemetery hill and LSH, I recall what some of the Indians said about this phase of the battle (and I know that these accounts are debatable and open scepticism, but they are all we have got), you come across things like “the grey horse troop let their horses go and fled for the river” and “about a 100 soldiers on foot and five on horseback gathered on a hill”, now a number of Indian accounts mention about the grey horse troop (probably because the horse colour made them stand out) so if E Company was caught out in the open the panic this could cause would be similar to what may have happened to C Company, and if they saw the F/HQ also getting pushed back and also being cut off, then the likely option would be to run, but run to where? Greg Michno once wrote a book called “the mystery of E Troop” and I have never read it, but the reviews mention about Cemetery Ravine being the place they ran to, anyway I won’t bore you all with the various reviews, and here is the link; linkIan.
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2014 16:01:14 GMT -6
Greg Michno once wrote a book called “the mystery of E Troop” and I have never read it, but the reviews mention about Cemetery Ravine being the place they ran to.... Ian, Don't waste your time. I do not like panning another fellow's book, especially someone as nice as Greg Michno, but this volume has been largely discredited. He is as far off base as anyone can be, claiming Cemetery Ravine, rather than Deep Ravine, was where the 28 bodies were found. Way off!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mac on Mar 6, 2014 16:41:23 GMT -6
There has been the suggestion that the first "break out" down from LSH was a more organised affair and that there was a late break out attempt in the same direction at the end of the fighting as Indians from the East came over the top of LSH. Pressure from the East, enough to hold them on the West slope, would seem to make the break for the river a viable last chance/desperate option. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2014 20:00:39 GMT -6
OK, I am a contrarian after all. Up to what point is it necessary to explain everything? Could there be no other answer? Do we go beyond what can be known, or reasonably speculated upon to dot every I, and cross every T? Does any of it really matter, when looked upon in terms of outcomes?
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Post by mac on Mar 6, 2014 21:07:28 GMT -6
Actually Chuck I am with you, my first choice would be Wisconsin. Just like the end of Casablanca, the start of a friendship. Possibly short given the circumstance. I am constantly surprised how far this thing can drag me into detail. Cheers
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