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Post by tubman13 on Mar 5, 2014 5:54:04 GMT -6
Ian, thank you, much better than I have. Will, print and use.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 8:37:12 GMT -6
It does seem odd Chuck that men would run towards deep ravine, especially as this was one of the main thoroughfares for the Indians, the place would have been full of them. I have mentioned this to Fred a while ago and I can see his reasons, fear being one of them, but if we believe that E Company was detailed to stem any flow from this feature then why would they run directly into it? It appears no one does see my reasoning here. No E Company men-- other than the commander-- were found atop LSH. Only F Company men and some residuals from the broken Keogh command. Only E Company men were identified in Deep Ravine. That doesn't mean everything happened all at once, simultaneously, but what it does show is that any movement by E Company was designed or planned. The Custer Hill/Last Stand Hill scene extended downward for as much as 200 yards, then extended further onto the South Skirmish Line where there were probably no more than 8 or 9 bodies. According to Indian accounts, a charge off LSH was executed near the end of the fighting, and this was obviously the E Company move off the hill. Why? To get away, some how; to open a channel toward safety, toward the river... toward anything that might save anyone. And obviously it didn't work. Why? Too long to run; too few horses; too heavy uniforms; too hot; too tired... too, too, too. Indians were not only in Deep Ravine, but they were on Cemetery Ridge. The SSL was a conduit between the ravine and the ridge and the ridge was higher. Those men who scampered down the SSL were simply overwhelmed and forced into the ravine by running, charging, overwhelming numbers. It's that simple. A couple of them-- maybe as many as three or four-- were among those 8 or 9 found on the SSL. Then, if you read other accounts-- white accounts-- you will find out that the burial parties tried initially to remove bodies from the ravine, but were unsuccessful getting them all out. Those that were removed were buried along the SSL, giving all those historians with "theories" and "agendas" the fodder they needed to suggest some sort of heroic defense was maintained there. It's all real simple. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 5, 2014 8:56:15 GMT -6
Then, if you read other accounts-- white accounts-- you will find out that the burial parties tried initially to remove bodies from the ravine, but were unsuccessful getting them all out. Those that were removed were buried along the SSL, giving all those historians with "theories" and "agendas" the fodder they needed to suggest some sort of heroic defense was maintained there. It's all real simple. Best wishes, Fred. Excellent summary, Fred. Has anyone ever written a full report on all of the white and NA observations or discoveries regarding the Deep Ravine? It seems a popular topic, and such a report would allow the reader to form a better opinion if nothing else. It's always been confusing to me because I think I've read versions where the alleged 28 bodies were removed and buried elsewhere, and other versions that say quite the opposite. AK
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 5, 2014 9:00:26 GMT -6
Hello Fred, I am not saying that they didn't end up in there because 28 of them were found dead in and around the place, but if E was initially sent to stem the flow of Indians from coming up from deep ravine then something must have drove them there, and this may have come from there right flank, a group (probably those suicide boys) struck them or their horse holders and cut them off from Custer Hill. The lack of E Coy men who died with Custer could be because there route to the F/HQ Group may have been blocked, or maybe the eight or nine that were not unidentified out of 38 might be amongst the dead on the SSL , CH or still in DR.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 5, 2014 9:08:53 GMT -6
Were ALL the men atop LSH actually identified at all? Or were just a few and assumptions have been made about the others? I've read most were stripped and unidentifiable. Is it valid to make an assumption solely because of the few who were actually ID'd, a plurality belonged to one company?
If people panic, as the soldiers may have done by the penultimate moments, is it valid to discount theories because there was no logic or military value to them? Couldn't those who seek shelter to save their life be excused from procedure?
Isn't it entirely possible that the soldiers in Deep Ravine or near may be composed of those initially heading up as well as those heading down?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 5, 2014 9:30:09 GMT -6
I am not sure but 28 out of the 42 may have been named, Fred did a list a while ago so he may elaborate further.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 18:00:11 GMT -6
Were ALL the men atop LSH actually identified at all? No. Not all, but quite a few… which to me is interesting because if they could identify those on LSH, why not elsewhere? Was it just because they identified the officers and didn’t bother with the EM? Personally, I find that troublesome. When you die for your country or what you believe in, rank no longer matters. In this case I think, yes. See below. Plus, the identifications—such as they were—fit in very nicely with Indian accounts from years later. Take Last Stand Hill and elongate it: take that fenced-in area and elongate it. Spread it out to where you think you could say it is no longer Last Stand Hill, but is now the South Skirmish Line. According to my topo map—and it is a bit hard to compute because of the map’s size—the scale is a little too small—I figure you could justify saying the “hill” and its attendant ridge (forming part of the hill) is about 168 yards. That is where the majority of those bodies—the 42 shown by markers—were found. I believe estimates said up to 200 yards. (The fenced-in area—measured on a “markers” maps—measures 84 yards at its longest.) So based on that, DC, your past posts about the location of bodies and the fact today’s representation is hardly indicative of where these men fell, are pretty well correct. To me, only on a limited basis. “Shelter” was with others, not so much terrain. No. There is no credible evidence troops were ever in Deep Ravine other than those being forced and killed there. E Company consisted of 36 troopers + two officers. One officer—Sturgis—was never identified. The other—Smith—was found on LSH. What isn’t very widely known—until you read my new book—is that there were six markers relocated from Cemetery Ridge to Last Stand Hill, probably, when the parking lot and visitors center was built. In all likelihood, those were E Company men because we have Indian accounts telling us one group of soldiers—probably F Company—moved off that ridge to a place just below Battle Ridge. That makes eminent tactical sense, especially when you consider that Deep Ravine was a good 50 – 100 yards shorter in 1876 than it is today. The re-positioning of F Company into that area would make perfect sense as an attempt to stem the tide of warriors coming up the Deep Ravine head-cut. The 28 bodies found in Deep Ravine + the six on Cemetery Ridge would account for 34 of the 36 enlisted E Company personnel and would mean two of the 8 or 9 or so seen on the SSL would in all likelihood be from E. The following is a list of those identified on LSH: 29 of the 42 (69%). Doug Scott says Custer, 5 officers, and perhaps 40 EM lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill. 28 names are documented: 14 PVTs 1. PVT Ygnatz Stungewitz (C) 2. PVT Willis B. Wright (C) 3. PVT Anton Dohman (F) 4. PVT Gustav Klein (F) 5. PVT William H. Lerock (F) 6. PVT Werner L. Liemann (F) 7. PVT Edward C. Driscoll (I) 8. PVT Archibald McIlhargey (I) 9. PVT John E. Mitchell (I) 10. PVT John Parker (I) 11. PVT Francis T. Hughes (L) 12. PVT Charles McCarthy (L) 13. PVT Oscar F. Pardee (aka, John Burke) (L) 14. PVT Thomas S. Tweed (L) 2 civilians: 15. Boston Custer (QM) 16. Autie Reed 1 surgeon: 17. Dr. George Lord (HQ) (Marker 17 for Lord is on the SSL) 1 trumpeter: 18. Henry Voss (HQ) 4 NCOs: 19. SGM William Sharrow (HQ) 20. 1SG Michael Kenney (F) 21. SGT John H. Groesbeck (F) 22. CPL William Teeman (F) [NOTE—CPL John J. Callahan (K) was identified on Last Stand Hill by others. The exhumation in 1877 of a body with corporal’s stripes could have been Callahan’s. Less likely in this location would be CPL William Teeman (F), probably found a little lower on the hill’s ridgeline. This would make the identifications total 29.] SGT Robert Hughes’ (K) body was most likely the one found at the head of Deep Ravine, though there is a remote chance he was killed on Custer Hill. Supposedly identified by CPT McDougall. If Hughes were found on LSH—and the chances of that are high since he was known to be carrying Custer’s personal standard, that would raise the “identified” total to 30—71.4%. Six officers: 23. GAC (HQ) 24. William Cooke (HQ) 25. Tom Custer (C/HQ) 26. Algernon Smith (E) 27. George Yates (F) 28. William Van W. Reily (F) Presently, 52 markers are located on Custer Hill; 42 bodies were buried there initially. Deep Ravine (8 men from Company E): 1. 1SG Frederick Hohmeyer 2. SGT John S. Ogden 3. CPL George C. Brown 4. CPL Albert H. Meyer 5. PVT Richard Farrell 6. PVT William Huber 7. PVT Andy Knecht 8. PVT William H. Rees Liddic presented his own description of where bodies were found. Grouped near Custer around the top of the knoll: 1. LT Cooke (HQ) 2. PVT Driscoll (I) 3. PVT Parker (I) 4. LT Smith (E) 5. SGT John Vickory-Groesbeck (F) 6. TMP Voss (HQ) 7. PVT McCarthy (L) Deep Ravine: 8. SGT Hughes (K) 9. PVT Tim Donnelly (F) 10. PVT Andrew Knecht (E) [Hardorff, On the LBH with Walter Camp, p. 132, FN 5]. On a rise above Deep Ravine: 11. CPL John Briody (F) Farthest north on the battlefield, opposite the present parking lot on the east side of the service entrance road: 12. SGM Sharrow (HQ). Lower west side, down the slope from the monument, about 100 yards from GAC: 13. Boston Custer 14. Autie Reed About 20 feet southeast of GAC, on a hillside: 15. Dr. Lord (HQ) In addition, Sergeant John Rafter claimed the body of Private Weston Harrington (L Company) “was found between Custer and the deep gully. The body was not mutilated and a blanket was thrown over him. He was known among the Sioux before he was enlisted and it was thought that some of them recognized him and protected his body in this way” [Hardorff, Camp, Custer, and the Little Bighorn, pp. 64 – 65]. Private John C. Creighton (K) said SGT Vickory’s body was found in a ravine between Calhoun and Keogh. He also said LT Reily was not mutilated. [71] 2LT Richard Thompson, Terry’s Acting Commissary of Subsistence, said there were only 9 or 10 men found between Custer and the gully (June 27, 1876) [Camp/Hammer, Custer in ’76, p. 248]. As for Deep Ravine: 1. 1SG Ryan (M): 18 or 20 men of E Company. 2. CPT Benteen (H): 22 bodies. 3. CPT Moylan (A): 20-odd bodies of E Company. 4. LT Godfrey (K): 28 men of Smith’s troop. 5. LT Hare (K): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop in a coulee in skirmish order. 6. SGT Kanipe (C): rode along the edge of a deep gully and counted 28 bodies in the ravine [Camp). 7. LT Richard Thompson (6th Infantry): maybe 34 bodies in a gully [Camp]. 8. LT Edward Maguire (Engineers): drew a map showing 28 bodies in one particular ravine. 9. LT Edward McClernand (2nd Cavalry): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop were found at the lower end of the line in a deep coulee. 10. COL John Gibbon (7th Infantry): 40 or 50 bodies were found in a valley running perpendicular to the river. 11. LT/Dr. Holmes Paulding: 28 bodies found in a deep ravine by the scouts. I would think the counts of LT Maguire and Holmes Paulding would be the most accurate. I would also accept Kanipe’s because he specifically claimed to have “counted” the bodies. In any event, of the eleven sources, six claim 28 bodies were in the ravine. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2014 18:04:00 GMT -6
Fred: Did you mean Deep Coulee or Deep Ravine?
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 18:45:43 GMT -6
Fred: Did you mean Deep Coulee or Deep Ravine? Who-o-o-ps! You are correct! I made the change. Thanks!! No... wait.... I just checked; are you talking about the McClernand comment? He said, "coulee," but that was before these places had names. Deep Coulee, Deep Ravine... dumb. Deep Coulee isn't really that deep and should carry another name. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2014 18:59:05 GMT -6
Fred's Coulee sounds good to me
Certain things bother me Fred. You recall all the trouble I had with the C Company position looking like a rear guard covering withdrawal from MTC Ford. Given nothing else that's what it looks like. Given testimony, along with flow is another matter, and the C Company counter or spoiling attack makes much more sense viewed in that light. The up and going down Depp Ravine for whatever purpose, counterattack, block, panic, escape, just does not sit well from and perspective, testimony or no testimony. It just looks wrong, but I cannot put my finger on a specific reason. Those markers on Cemetery Ridge you referred to are part of it. Smith on LSH is part of it. Sturgis not so much. It just does not look like a tactical move to me, nor does it look like, well I don't know. Don't think it is that important to the story, and as such I suppose it will just keep hanging out there as an unknown outlier.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 5, 2014 19:11:31 GMT -6
Of the accounts about Deep Ravine you quote, Fred, how many appear no later than the RCOI? They're quoting each other at later dates. If Lord was found on the east side of LSH, as here described, there is conflict with other accounts and stone placements, as you note.
Kanipe said a lot of things we know aren't true. Autie Reed may not have been found at all, in CFH. And I doubt any soldiers were not hammered; it was a device to give some calm to their families. Godfrey lied initially when he said few were mutilated, then all were except Custer, but La Custer lived longer than he, so he just altered the fib.
No E's except their officer on LSH? But L, I, C, and F. Three companies represented from Keogh's alleged group and one from Yates'.
If soldiers came UP from the river and ran by Deep Ravine, they could have taken hopeful cover there as their peers may have later.
As others have pointed out, the benefits of a visible firing line towards one direction are of dubious benefit where surrounded. Further, why would Indians run UP Deep Ravine if it were a bad idea for soldiers to run down it?
Again, you could be entirely correct, and I have not read the book. But the corpses were gruesome and I doubt concrete ID could be made on most, given the majority were stripped and pummeled.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2014 19:18:11 GMT -6
DC: There is one I will take on. Indians ran up Deep Ravine because it offered both cover and concealment until just before reaching battle ridge. If any soldiers ran down Deep Ravine it would be later in the battle, high ground on two sides and a bazillion Indians saying to themselves We got 'em Three shots for a nickel. Teddy Bears to the highest score.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 19:31:45 GMT -6
Has anyone ever written a full report on all of the white and NA observations or discoveries regarding the Deep Ravine? It seems a popular topic, and such a report would allow the reader to form a better opinion if nothing else. It's always been confusing to me because I think I've read versions where the alleged 28 bodies were removed and buried elsewhere, and other versions that say quite the opposite. Thanks, Andy. I have listed in that longer post every comment I have seen about the men found in Deep Ravine. I know what you mean about the bodies being moved or not moved. According to what I read, below, a few may have been carried out and the rest just covered with dirt where they lay. Lynch, D., PVT--F Company-- Saw Seventh Infantry troopers carrying dead men out of deep gully. After seven were carried out, Lynch remarked there were still a lot in there. “Lynch says these men in gully were carried up and buried on the ridge.” Camp interviews, October 1908 and February 8, 1909; Custer in '76, 139. Lynch, D., PVT-- At another time, Lynch claimed the Seventh Infantry buried the bodies where they fell and did not move them out of the deep gully and onto the ridge for burial. He said the coulee lay “about 600-700 yards over the ridge from where the general was found.” Camp interviews, October 1908 and February 8, 1909; Custer in '76, 140, FN 4. Lynch, D., PVT-- One interesting point is Lynch apparently told Camp the bodies were carried up the south side of the gully, seven of them already laid on the bank when Lynch arrived. Camp interviews, October 1908 and February 8, 1909; Custer in '76, 140. McDougall, T., CPT-- Reno ordered McDougall to bury E Company (McDougall had commanded E for five years). About half of them were found in a ravine, the other half in a “line” outside. “All the men were lying on their faces, and appeared to have been shot mostly in the side.” RCOI, 1879; RCOI, 535. McDougall, T., CPT-- In McDougall’s letter of May 18, 1909, from Wellesville, NY, addressed to Godfrey, he says, “he found most of E troop in the ravine. Does he mean in the deep gully? Were there as many as 28? Yes. All the bodies in the deep gully were buried in the gully—none was carried out. Homeyer was in there and Hughes.” Letter to Camp, February 26, 1909; Custer in '76, 72. McDougall, T., CPT-- “In the ravine I found most of the troop, who had used the upper sides of the ravine for a kind of breastwork, falling to the bottom as they were shot down… This was not very far from the village. Only a few men found the ground from the extension of the ravine… Only a few of the men could be recognized. I knew Sergeant Hohmyer at once; he had one sock left on his foot with his name on it.” McDougall to Godfrey letter, May 18, 1909; The Custer Myth, 377. Notice the McDougall comments are from three separate times and to different people. Notice their consistency. Now compare that to the Lynch comment where he claimed seven men had been carried out. Lynch told this to Walter Camp 32 years after the battle. It seems to me Lynch wandered over there-- he had been on the "Far West" during the battle... lucky him: he was from F Company-- and saw the men from the 7th Infantry trying to deal with the decomposed bodies. There may have been several-- seven, according to Lynch-- lying above the ravine and Lynch assumed they had been carried out. According to McDougall, that is where they were found. So if we believe McDougall-- and I do, especially considering the timing and the circumstances, then it seems to me those men in the ravine had been forced there, the other seven perishing on the SSL. Notice the obtuseness of the Roy comment below. Again, we kind of run into Camp's odd transcriptions. I take that to be, soldiers on the higher ground were covered there, lending more credence to McDougall's account.Roy, S., CPL--A Company-- Camp asked Roy if he had seen bodies—twenty or more—in a deep gully, and were they buried there or carried out. Roy replied that no graves were dug, and “no bodies removed, but [they were] covered where they lay.” Those soldiers were covered on higher ground. Letter to Camp, March 4, 1909; On the LBH with Walter Camp, 40 – 41. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 5, 2014 20:25:06 GMT -6
You recall all the trouble I had with the C Company position looking like a rear guard covering withdrawal from MTC Ford. Well, I would too. Especially since I don't believe C Company was anywhere near MTC Ford. And in my opinion, no one needed any covering fire that E Company couldn't provide. That's the fallacy in some of these accounts. These units, operating as they did, could provide their own covering fire. If you are talking about their charge into Calhoun Coulee, I agree. It is a difficult situation. I believe Keogh was ordered to remain there to wait for Benteen and to cover Custer's tail as he moved north. Keogh's time in that position was to be limited: probably no more than 30 to 40 minutes. One of the major problems people have-- and you can see it rampant on the other board-- is that very few people understand that this fight happened very quickly when each of its phases reached "critical mass." You see this in the valley fight with Reno. He spends the better part of 35 minutes, almost all of it on foot, when suddenly all hell breaks loose. He spends 10 to 12 minutes in the timber?!!! What sense does that make...? Unless the pressure had become so great and the numbers so overwhelming, he saw no other way to deal with it. That's called combat and these Indians weren't stupid: maximum force to bear; speed, confusion, ruse.... Well, it was the same with the Custer fight. They pull back from Ford B; little pressure other than snotty, determined Indians sniping at their asses.... Smith dismounts a couple sets-of-fours to provide covering fire and he leapfrogs them until he reaches the hilltop. Same thing once Custer heads north: ennui for 10, 15 minutes.... Then suddenly, things begin getting dicy. And Keogh, believing he's only going to be there a short time more, instructs Harrington to charge into the coulee... and then maybe get out, who knows... although it seems Harrington dismounted, intimating-- to me-- a longer stay than just enough to chase away some marauding warriors. And then, here too, all hell breaks loose. And the same with Custer on Cemetery Ridge. He's there waiting for Benteen-Keogh, only a couple minutes by now, and he sees Indians pouring out of that really deep ravine: and believe me, once in there, no one can see you except from the ravine wall's edge. He sees this army of Indians and he sends Yates down there to deal with it... but Yates can't: doesn't have the men or the firepower. He loses a couple of men, e. g., Donnelly and Briody, and backs away, now under severe pressure to the high ground. At about the same time, Custer and E are completely overrun, E Company losing many of its horses, and Custer is forced up Cemetery Ridge where he combines again with Yates. All of this is done at a near-blistering pace... but that's mobile combat. We don't walk, we don't take breaks, we don't chit-chat, then grab a rifle.... It's wild, it's mayhem, it's speed. That's why I go crazy with the nonsense-- especially next door-- with this 2+ hours on Reno Hill, then another 2+ hours on Weir Point. The whole thing is ridiculous. What the hell could these guys have done for more than two hours? Reno Hill had several events: Hare going for the ammo mules; Reno looking for Hodgson; Varnum being sent to bury Hodgson; re-distribution of ammo; pack mule arrival with ammo; departure of D Company.... What else? How long did each take? Were any of them simultaneous? Hare's trip and back, for example, probably didn't take more than 27 minutes; 4 miles, round-trip. When he got back he saw the tail-end of D Company heading toward Cedar Coulee. And what was going on while Hare was away. Well, the troops Benteen sent forward returned; Weir approached Reno, then thought better of it; Reno left to find Hodgson; three Crows arrive; D Company begins to move; and by the time Hare has returned, so has Reno who then orders Hare forward to tell Weir to try to open contact with Custer. Then the ammo mules arrive and one box broken into and ammo distributed. Where the hell is the 2+ hours? You would think this was all done in slow-mo. And the same thing on Weir Peaks. I am not sure I understand you or what you believe of this part of the fight. To me it is very simple. Custer reached Cemetery Ridge after Ford D. He dismounted part of the command-- E Company-- and checked the views to see what was going on. I think this may have been his first big surprise, because I think as George reached Cemetery Ridge, the first elements of Crazy Horse's band began reaching the head-cut of Deep Ravine. (And what is so interesting to me here, is that when I did the timing work, I did the Custer movement separate from the Crazy Horse movements, and they coincided within two minutes. To me, that meant I had done the speeds and distances pretty well-- accurately, you may say-- and the timing proved the theory, then tied in perfectly with the few Indian accounts we have. Crazy stuff to me!)So now, George sends Yates to stem the Crazy Horse tide. Yates moves out, reaches the basin area, but is pushed back. At the same time, George is under quickly increasing pressure and is forced up Cemetery Ridge. Yates and Custer meet at LSH. Simple. Easy flow. Solves all problems and issues. Supported by every account. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2014 20:41:49 GMT -6
I was speaking about somewhere less than 30 men running into Deep Ravine, never being found, escaping to the river, counterattacking whatever reason, and then not being found markers for them being created in Cemetery Ravine where they remain today. None of that sounds plausible to me. Never has.
I see a fight in the basin, up Cemetery Ravine, and another part on Cemetery Ridge, until all are finally pushed back to LSH. Under those conditions I don't see anyone running down Deep Ravine, or anywhere else toward that river.
If you remember way back to the 1950's there were a series of books for kids called the Landmark Series. I still have two, one on the Alamo and another on the Flying Tigers. Well the one about George had this heroic circle the wagons last stand, and at the very end twenty or so of his nearest and dearest, him in the lead, attempt to break out to the river. A futile attempt which ended badly. That was the first I ever heard of this and decided Errol Flynn would never do that. Many years later I remembered those passages as I stood atop LSH. All I could mutter is sure they did, bullshit. I think the guy who wrote it was Mackinlay Kantor.
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