|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 28, 2014 6:38:11 GMT -6
Thanks Andy
These google maps always seem to have more relief than what I observe in person.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 28, 2014 9:02:46 GMT -6
Yes Steve, they seem to take their images either in the early morning or late afternoon, this gives a better outline of the topography, as shadows make even the shallowest of ravines look must deeper, I used to do Astronomy when I was a kid and the best time to view the moon was during one of its phases, this would show up all the land marks due to the shadows being cast, if you looked a full moon these same features would disappear.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by alfakilo on Jan 28, 2014 9:41:38 GMT -6
Thanks Andy These google maps always seem to have more relief than what I observe in person. I think so too. We visited the battlefield again last fall. I had used Google Earth quite a bit before this visit, and I was struck by how different the terrain actually looks as compared to pictures such as the one I posted. I took some video of various locations, one being a view from the Ford B area. Looking up into the Luce/Cartwright ridge areas, the ground seems much less defined. I would be happy to share these but the size of the files prevent that. Another area where I spent some time was the Reno defense location. First, I had no idea it was so large. I'm still curious about the stories of NAs on Sharpshooter's Ridge...that ridge is a long way from the Reno site, and it's hard for me to imagine NA shooters being able to aim at objects as small as a human head from that distance. Obviously, a number of Reno's men were killed by rifle fire, but whether or not this was the result of aimed fire is not clear to me. Another area that I found of interest was the area around the 3411 benchmark. Looking out from that vantage point, it's hard to imagine that the size of the NA village area wasn't relatively obvious...meaning that someone looking down onto the valley area would have thought something like "Wow, that's a lot bigger than I thought".
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 29, 2014 6:00:26 GMT -6
Before I knew that it was called 3411 my son Scott gave me and himself a trip to the battlefield. As we drove near it I thought it a place I would ride my horse to get a better look. You could see both directions and keep you horse less exposed.
If I were a little younger I would consider buying the 7th Ranch. Its for sale and its in the right spot to access the battlefield. I will be there in June again this year. Hopefully Gordie's book will be out by then.
Regards
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Jan 29, 2014 7:00:10 GMT -6
Before I knew that it was called 3411 my son Scott gave me and himself a trip to the battlefield. As we drove near it I thought it a place I would ride my horse to get a better look. You could see both directions and keep you horse less exposed. Ranger, did you ride the battlefield? As it is my plan to do so this June. As I understand it a fellow named Ken Real Bird can supply the horses. Do you know anything about this?
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 30, 2014 5:41:11 GMT -6
Yes I know Ken Real Bird and have rode thier horse Roger( a younger horse lots of energy and speed). They will take you across the river and into the area between the NPS holdings. That is the land between Custer and Reno/Benteen. It is an interesting ride along the river, up on Weir and about as far as 3411 turning just before the Reno/Benteen site. Our ride went down Cedar Coulée and then crossed MTC to Luce and Nye-Cartwright ending with crossing the river again. My friend Chip Watt also has a battlefield ride starting at Reno Creek and ending at highway 212 just outside the park boundary. I think the Realbird ride is a great first time ride. You ride across the LBH at MTF. You can't get much better than that. Pay attention to the amount of cover you have as you ride toward Weir and see how close you can close with cover to Weir then remember that distance and then when you get to Sharpshooter compare that distance to Reno/Benteen. Enjoy the ride. What dates will you be there? Regards AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Jan 30, 2014 9:10:23 GMT -6
Ranger, I will be there middle to late June. I am supposed to go on a prairie dog hunt, but the guys I am going with won't lock down a date. So far they say 18-22 but won't lock it in. If that is the case I will probably go earlier than that.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 31, 2014 10:11:55 GMT -6
ROGER
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Feb 3, 2014 21:11:14 GMT -6
A couple of items attached to save scrabbling into booka. Freeman is passe since everyone knows what he drew when he accompanied Benteen to the battleground. The DoA map is overlayed with early relic finds and is of interest for the positions on GGR and those upon the Luce NC terrain. Freeman clearly indicated the mouth of Deep Coulee and at '4' he saw evidence of a dismounted skirmish line. 4 is NC ridge. His 'C' and '5' are therefore Calhoun hill locale. This re-orientates thinking about the two routes of march which were given from what is Maguires 'B', ford B. The route nearest the river moves over GGR to the position at which Godfrey was told the gray horses of Smith's company fought and the overlay map indicates relic finds in related areas. More is less and less is more and opinion is accepted opinion and Freeman's journal considerably disregarded because it is disregarded but he rode with Benteen's advance and was therefore indicating the route of shod horses which were not Benteen's doing on 27th May. It is what it is. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by alfakilo on Feb 4, 2014 15:22:24 GMT -6
A couple of items attached to save scrabbling into booka. Freeman is passe since everyone knows what he drew when he accompanied Benteen to the battleground. What did he draw and why does that make him 'passe'? I don't see any indication of relics on GGR. I do see a red area in the bottom of Calhoun Coulee where C Co was brought to a halt and then up on FFR where the C Co folks went next. I have read where relic evidence and human remains were found on Luce Ridge. Who were these humans? Has anyone ever validated the lower route shown on the Maquire map?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2014 15:37:05 GMT -6
AK: You did not ask me but I think Britt either did ( as a no go) or knows quite a bit about it. I remember him commenting on it more than a year ago.
|
|
|
Post by alfakilo on Feb 4, 2014 19:11:57 GMT -6
AK: You did not ask me but I think Britt either did ( as a no go) or knows quite a bit about it. I remember him commenting on it more than a year ago. Did he comment on the remains on Luce Ridge, the possibility of the advance along GGR, or Freeman? AK
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2014 23:07:43 GMT -6
AK The only thing I recall discussing with bc was the Maguire route from MTC Ford to LSH, and the fact that it was severely cross compartmented.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Feb 5, 2014 6:43:01 GMT -6
Andy,
Both Douglas Scott and Jerome Greene [Greene, Evidence and the Custer Enigma, p. 39 – 40; and Scott, Uncovering History, p. 110] speak of a body found in Deep Coulee: “A soldier’s skeleton was found by Frank Bethune in the Deep Coulee area in 1928. Willey examined that skeleton… and found it to be that of a 35-year-old white male about 68 inches tall. He had a gunshot wound to the head, evidence of blunt force trauma, and at least ninety-eight cut marks on his bones, indicating that the victorious Lakota and Cheyenne mutilated him…. No identity has been established for this man.” This is in all likelihood the same area where Joseph Blummer in 1904, found a boot with bones in it and equipment bearing the initials, “J. D.” or “R. D.” At the time it was thought to be from John Duggan (L). There are, however, a number of troopers fitting this description:
o PVT Henderson, Sykes (E)—b. Armstrong Country, PA, 1844 or 1845. 5’ 8” tall (68” and 31 or 32 years old). o BSM Manning, James R. (F) – b. Houston County, GA, 1843. 5’ 8½” tall (68½” and 33 years old). o PVT Bruce, Patrick (F)—b. Cork, Ireland, 1844. 5’ 7” tall (67” and 32 years old). o PVT Gardiner, John (F)—b. Brockville, Ontario, Canada, February 2, 1845. 5’ 7” tall (67” and 31 years old). o PVT Knauth, Herman (F)—b. Dammendorf, Prussia, 1838. 5’ 8” tall (68” and 38 years old). o CPL Harrison, William H. (L) – b. Gloucester, MA, 1845. Hazel eyes, auburn hair, dark complexion; 5’ 7¾” tall (67¾” and 31 years old). o BSM Siemon, Charles (L)—b. Copenhagen, Denmark, 1843. Gray eyes, brown hair, dark complexion; 5’ 7½” tall (67½” and 33 years old). o PVT O’Connell, David J. (L) – b. Cork, Ireland, 1843. Dark eyes, brown hair, ruddy complexion; 5’ 7½” tall (67½” and 33 years old).
Greene wrote, “During the years after the battle, Frank Bethune found several skeletons in the area of Deep Coulee, and in 1928 found one with an arrowhead fixed in its spine.” Greene was alluding to the four “run-aways” Wooden Leg spoke of. This is a strong possibility, especially since the Greene artifact map shows the bones found well above where the E and F Company troopers would have cut across the flats of Deep Coulee.
Also, regarding your comment about Greasy Grass Ridge, firearm artifact analysis done after the 1984 - 1985 digs indicated seven discrete Indian positions:
1. The so-called Henryville area near Calhoun Hill. 2. A small knoll some 200 meters northeast of Last Stand Hill. 3. Two positions on Greasy Grass Ridge. 4. Three positions on the lower end of Greasy Grass Ridge and the flanks of the upper portion of Deep Ravine. • Government cartridge cases were found at these three positions, but it is possible these cartridges could have been retrieved from either the Rosebud fight or the Reno valley fighting.
Another thing to remember, many people, including Doug Scott, refer to the lower reaches of Finley-Finckle Ridge as Greasy Grass Ridge. They come together at some point.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by alfakilo on Feb 5, 2014 9:48:04 GMT -6
Fred and QC...thanks for the info. Did Maguire say what led him to think that there was a second advance closer to the river (as shown on his map)?
|
|