|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2013 9:08:30 GMT -6
I have been trying to pin down a TO&E of a standard Cavalry Troop (or Company) at full strength, this unit should contain 100 Officers, NCOs and Men. And in the end I decided to have a go myself, most of the data I have used to compile this unit has come from the good people of this board (so thanks in advance).
Cavalry Troop 1876 (100 all ranks)
1 x Captain (Commander) 1 x 1st Lieutenant 1 x 2nd Lieutenant 1 x 1st Sergeant 5 x Line Sergeants 1 x Saddler 1 x Farrier 1 x Blacksmith 78 x Privates
So if we break this down into a HQ and two Platoons, we should have something like this;
Troop HQ: 1 x Captain (Commander) 1 x 1st Sergeant 1 x Line Sergeant 1 x Saddler 1 x Farrier 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Orderly (Pvt)
Two Platoons (each containing) 1 x Lieutenant (either 1st or 2nd) 2 x Line Sergeants 2 x Corporals 1 x Trumpeter 1 x Orderly (Pvt) 36 x Privates (in nine sets of fours)
Now the only thing I find wrong with this is the sets of fours, because with each platoon having only two Corporals it would mean that one Cpl would command four sets of fours and the other Cpl Five. So maybe the extra four Privates in each Platoon could have been used for different tasks, and that would give each Corporal equal sets of fours. So am I close with my counting soldiers routine?
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 9, 2013 9:22:05 GMT -6
Ian: I think you have the "full strength" company pretty well nailed down. The platoon I am not so sure of. Sixteen men' four sets of fours, is a very wide span of control and especially so for the junior most of noncommissioned officers. I think that needs a little more research., and frankly I don't see how it could ever be determined. Today we would refer to these as required (full) strength, and authorized (percent of authorized that you are allowed to fill in peacetime) strength, and actual (what you have present for duty ) strength/. I seriously doubt if actual ever met authorized levels, much less ever getting to required levels, so the point would be unknowable how the intent was to organize internally, unless you ran across some real specifics addressing that. Guessing even real good guesses, I do not think will provide complete answers absent some documentation.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2013 9:41:21 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, it would be nice to get the correct set up, but as you said there could be a difference between a peace time Company and a Company on campaign.
This is one of two that I have been trying fathom out, the other one was the Royal Yugoslav Rifle Company 1941, now this TO&E has been eluding me for over a decade and a kind soul from Serbia has come to my aid and has given me a break down of this much searched for unit, so that has left me with the US Cavalry Company, so I thought that I would give it another go.
P.S. if anyone wants a copy of the Yugoslav Infantry Company then just ask, it has a strange organisation contains 219 all ranks, and over 20 of these soldiers have no weapons at all, even in battle they don’t even carry a pistol.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 9, 2013 12:03:34 GMT -6
Not that I would ever advocate unarmed me in any table of organization, but I am curious as to what their job was?
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2013 12:42:09 GMT -6
I will PM you a version.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2013 12:57:47 GMT -6
Breaking the US Cavalry Platoon down, it may look like this;
Platoon HQ: 1 x Lieutenant 1 x Trumpeter 1 x Orderly (Pvt)
2 x Squads (each containing) 1 x Line Sergeant 1 x Corporal 16 x Privates (in 4 sets of fours)
But again that would leave two extra Privates.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by Gatewood on Sept 9, 2013 15:19:21 GMT -6
Ian, this is my stab at it. Keep in mind that this is a theoretical full strength company and is, in several respects, quite a bit different from what we are familiar with at the LBH, and not all of these would necessarily serve with the company in the field. Also, Sergeants/Corporals had no standing command responsibility, as such, when in action, but could be detailed for special purposes (ex., command a flank guard).
HQ Section: 1 x Captain 1 x 1st Sergeant 1 x Sergeant/Standard Bearer 2 x Trumpeter 2 x Orderly/messenger 1 x Farrier/Vet 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Sadler 2 x Hospital Orderly 2 x Teamster 1 x Wagoneer 3 x Casualty Reserve 18
1st Platoon: 1 x Lieutenant 2 x Sergeant 2 x Corporal 36 x Private 41 = 10 sections of 4 + Lieutenant 2nd Platoon: 1 x Lieutenant 2 x Sergeant 2 x Corporal 36 x Private 41 = 10 sections of 4 + Lieutenant 100 Total
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 9, 2013 23:56:53 GMT -6
Troop HQ should contain a second officer to act as executive .
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2013 2:43:17 GMT -6
Gatewood; you had a good shot at it, I never thought of adding Teamsters or a Wagoneer, Using the Sergeant attached to the HQ as a Company Guidon holder is a question I was going to ask yesterday but never got round to it.
Going on what I have read, all Officers should have an Orderly (someone to look after crib and stuff), now I am not sure if these men were used as Messengers or not.
The same could be said of the Hospital Orderly’s, if you look at the men the 7th Cavalry detailed for this job, they were personnel from different Companies.
On Platoon NCOs, would you class them as part of a set of four? What I mean is four sets of fours contain an NCO.
Thanks for the input.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Sept 10, 2013 7:00:25 GMT -6
HQ Section: 1 x Captain 1 x 1st Sergeant 1 x Sergeant/Standard Bearer 2 x Trumpeter 2 x Orderly/messenger 1 x Farrier/Vet 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Sadler 2 x Hospital Orderly 2 x Teamster 1 x Wagoneer 3 x Casualty Reserve 18 Half the above are rear echlon people and would be a useless appendage at an operational HQ. One also notes the absence of a Q.M sergeant.
|
|
|
Post by Gatewood on Sept 10, 2013 7:07:40 GMT -6
Prior to 1863 a cavalry company did have an extra officer, known as a Supernumerary Lieutenant. It also contained a Quartermaster Sergeant and a Commissary Sergeant. Due to restructuring toward the end of the war and subsequently, it lost all of these, with one of the sergeants or even a private often serving as a defacto QM sergeant.
Although Ian divided the company into 'platoons' for the purposes of this exercise, there really was no such thing, although they could be carved out and utilized if necessary. As such, there really were not two Lt. platoon commanders, and, generally, only two of a company's three officers would be present at any given time, with the captain or senior lieutenant serving as commander and the other lieutenent present as the exec. At LBH I think every combination of Capt/1Lt, Capt/2Lt, and 1Lt/2Lt were represented.
Below what we were considering 'platoons", there was no officially designated components either, although what were informally know as 'elements' were generally used and coincided with the non-commissioned officers. As I indicated previously, corporals normally had no command responsibility, being more like "substitute sergeants", to move up when a sergeant was absent or a casualty. Until then they were really no different than another private, although they did assist the sergeant with some aspects of training and administration. In battle an element would normally have 16 men (or 12 excepting horse holders) on line (corporal + 15 privates), with the sergeant standing behind them instructing and coordianting them.
Also, as Wild points out, a number of the presonnel are rear ecehlon types, but they were part of a company's authorized strength none the less.
Posted below is my new best guess at likely makeup, based upon the discussion above.
HQ Section: 1 x Captain 1 x 1st Lt 2 x 2nd Lt 1 x 1st Sergeant 2 x Trumpeter/Messenger 3 x Officers orderlies (privates) 10
2 x Hospital orderly 2 x Teamster 1 x Wagoneer 5
Reserve Element: 1 x Sergeant 1 x Farrier/Vet 1 x Blacksmith 1 x Sadler 13 x Private 17 = 4 sections of 4 + Sergeant 1st Element: 1 x Sergeant 1 x Corporal 15 x Private 17 = 4 sections of 4 + Sergeant 2nd Element: 1 x Sergeant 1 x Corporal 15 x Private 17 = 4 sections of 4 + Sergeant 3rd Element: 1 x Sergeant 1 x Corporal 15 x Private 17 = 4 sections of 4 + Sergeant 4th Element: 1 x Sergeant 1 x Corporal 15 x Private 17 = 4 sections of 4 + Sergeant 100 Total
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2013 7:37:44 GMT -6
Agreed Gatewood. The platoon of 1876 was an ad-hoc organization, put together as the need arose, and not something documented on a table of organization. It is quite likely it was not even called a platoon, or that the term was not in universal usage. The platoon itself more than likely evolved from 17th century European attempts to organize and employ fire more effectively. The number of officers might suggest a formal division of the company into two parts in U S service, and it certainly was capable of that, but in practice it configured itself as the situation dictated. When two or more elements were joined together for the task at hand, the norm was to provide one of the two lieutenants to exercise command. This direct command relationship of the officer over the two or more elements ceased upon mission completion.
In the western Army, the strength was usually so low that one officer could adequately command a company both administratively and tactically, and there, mind you now in practical usage, for much of the overhead found in a full up TO&E company. The First Sergeant handled most of the administrative and supply matters. If they were lucky enough to have a farrier he took care of his end of logistics. A trumpeter, was as essential as todays communications people so he would always be present. As for the others, orderlys and the like, they were furnished by detail.
The platoon in the U S Army evolved into something that became a permanent part of the echelon of organization. I don't find any use of it in the Spanish American War, above what had been discussed here. By World War I it had become institutionalized, and I think the institutionalization may very well have been brought about by the Root Reforms of the very early years of the 20th Century. I am not sure about that. I will have to check, and if it is any different than what I just stated I will post a correction. Much of the Army's development of the 20th and 21st centuries, trace their genesis to the Root Reforms.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2013 7:44:58 GMT -6
Nice work Gatewood and that could work in the field too, rather like a Square formation.
But I am not sure if a Triangle Battalion was the norm (but looking at the 7th on 25/06/76 anything goes), with Three Companies per Battalion, on the data I have if say’s that there are two Battalions to each Wing, but I remember bringing this up before and found out that the Wing system had been abolished.
But if we keep to the Wing formation then that would give us 19 Officers; 1 x Major (Battalion Commander) 6 x Captains (one per Company) 12 x Lieutenants (six 1st & six 2nd so two per Company)
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Sept 10, 2013 7:56:19 GMT -6
Ian: There were three majors and in theory those were the three officers designated to command battalions. In practice any, two, three, four or as many as six companies could form a battalion, and when the mission completed the battalion organization dissolved. If you think of a battalion then as two or more companies grouped on a temporary basis for a specific mission, rather than an organization having some permanent structure, you would be in good shape. In the 1880's, battalions were made a permanent, documented by TO&E echelon, and in the cavalry were called squadrons. If memory serves it was 1883, and along with the term squadron coming into approved formal usage, companies were re-designated troops, thus making their long used unofficial title, official.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2013 8:53:01 GMT -6
Chuck; yes I agree they were flexible units and I would be more familiar using the terms;
Squadron (Battalion) Troop (Company) Trooper (Soldier)
I don’t know if the term detail is just reserved to the Cavalry or not?
Going back to organisation, I don’t know if I am right but the doctrine used seems to be that every Regiment could drop off Troops when moving in the field (or campaign), now I have not double Checked this (Fred will know the correct total) so forgive me if I am wrong, but the 7th may have left in its wake nearly 300 men from when it left FAL and got to PDR and then took out men for Pack duty. I don’t know when the US Army gave each Regiment or Squadron or even Troop its own Train, with men assigned on a permanent basis rather than watering down its units.
oh by the way Happy Birthday Fuchs!
Ian.
|
|