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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 25, 2013 10:15:18 GMT -6
I have always held the notion that the Custer Battalion travelled down MTC in this order, HQ, E, F, I, L C, and that the leading element of HQ, E & F going directly to the mouth with Keogh moving onto the ridges with I, L & C. But in the Mike Bonafede pamphlet it states I, L, C, E & F, with the same groups breaking off as I have stated. Is this the correct order of Companies and was any info on this line up given by Martini or Kanipe?
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 25, 2013 12:20:49 GMT -6
I have always held the notion that the Custer Battalion travelled down MTC in this order, HQ, E, F, I, L C, and that the leading element of HQ, E & F going directly to the mouth with Keogh moving onto the ridges with I, L & C. Ian, No one left an order of march, not Kanipe, not Martini. We have snippets that lead us to some conclusions, but not definitive by any stretch. Your order is close, but not what I would have. To me, Headquarters was first, F second, E third. Yates was senior to Smith, so he would lead Smith's company. Yates may have even ridden with Custer; they were close friends. We also have a comment from someone whose name escapes me right now, that the Gray Horse Troop was in the middle. Because of the 1-2-3 configuration, the closest E can be to the middle would be 3rd. After that, you would have I, L, then C. If not mistaken, we have someone's comment about C being last, and that would fit as well with protocol. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 25, 2013 13:02:52 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, I remember a program about a certain individual who claimed to have survived the battle, I won’t mention his name but his initials are FF, and in the show it was said that C Company was Custer’s rear guard, but the same person then went on to tell a tale of being blinded and knocked out, riding through the Indian lines on a tired horse and galloping for miles across country, so I won’t go any further.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 26, 2013 3:50:18 GMT -6
Fred, I have took your advice over the front Companies and the line column now looks like this HQ, F, E, I, L & C.
HQ = probably right to have the HQ up front, they may have had an advance unit at point just in case of ambush.
F & E = you gave a good reason for this in your post.
I = well this was Keogh’s Company and he led a wing so I would have him and his Company at the head of the last three in line.
L = well someone had to be between I & C.
C = I think the reason I have C Company as ‘’Tail End Charlie’’ is because of the amount of stragglers, some of these may have been genuine, but if you want to fall out without a good reason this would be the place to do it.
Stragglers (I hope I have this correct Fred):
E = 2 F = 1 I = 1 L = 0 C = 5
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2013 4:34:19 GMT -6
Probably not surprising but I have a different take on the Keogh Battalion. It is based upon a hunch only. No data at all. I believe the order of march was Keogh, Company L, Company I, and finally Company C. Here is why. I envision them going into position with Company L first on Calhoun Hill, Company I passing through ending up further north. Finally Company C passes through ending up in the middle. Keogh commanded the battalion. There was no need for him to be with his company, nor they with him. Company L going into position first defines the southern end, the end facing the most immediate potential threat. Just makes sense to me for L to define the position and the other two companies to further build upon it.
Agree on F and E in that order, and for a similar reason, having nothing to do with F being Yates' company. I believe the same procedure with F and E was used at both fords. The lead company would establish the initial bound, and the following company, the one designated to either take the close look, or accompany (escort) the recon party itself would pass through or around and make the final bound, while F would cover the movement. I think it was E who took the close look at Ford B, and also E that accompanied the recon party to Ford D or its environs.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 26, 2013 12:49:14 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, hunches count too my friend, I don’t know how Keogh would have organised any move to Calhoun Hill, the way I looked at it was that the three Companies arrived either on Battle Ridge or around Calhoun Hill, then they may have waited till Custer had moved up and contacted them with any new orders, and it was then that L Company moved into position on Calhoun.
Having said that, I have not controlled units or moved large bodies of Troops so you have the advantage on me Chuck.
Ian.
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Post by benteen on Aug 26, 2013 13:44:20 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, hunches count too my friend, I don’t know how Keogh would have organised any move to Calhoun Hill, the way I looked at it was that the three Companies arrived either on Battle Ridge or around Calhoun Hill, then they may have waited till Custer had moved up and contacted them with any new orders, and it was then that L Company moved into position on Calhoun. Having said that, I have not controlled units or moved large bodies of Troops so you have the advantage on me Chuck. Ian. Ian...As far as the order of march we can put E or F in front whichever you choose but as to the rest I believe it to be I then C then L. I say this because we know that L co formed the skirmish line. Why if L co was in the middle of I and C would you pull them out to go around C co to form the skirmish line. It just makes sense to me that L co was in the rear . I would send you a PM but I think more people are interested, so do you have any up-date on Gordon. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2013 14:17:23 GMT -6
Dan: From what direction was the only known threat coming from? Would it not make more sense to address that threat first (with Company L) then build the rest of your position on Company L acting as the base. That to me argues very strongly for L being up front, where Keogh halts them, then takes the other two further north. Once he had chosen a place it does not make much sense to me to ride to the rear of the column put L in place, then return to deploy the rest. That entire position holds no value if Calhoun Hill itself is not held, there it becomes the foundation upon which everything else is built. You have to put yourself here in the man who gave the orders, Keogh, then think how he would have probably gone about it.
It is the same principle as first placing you automatic weapons in position addressing the most likely area of threat,and then building the rest of the position around them
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Post by fred on Aug 26, 2013 14:23:05 GMT -6
As far as the order of march we can put E or F in front whichever you choose but as to the rest I believe it to be I then C then L. I say this because we know that L co formed the skirmish line. Why if L co was in the middle of I and C would you pull them out to go around C co to form the skirmish line. It just makes sense to me that L co was in the rear . Dan, Don't forget, by the time L Company was placed on a skirmish line, the five companies had basically co-mingled on Calhoun Hill, so it wouldn't have made any difference what order they were in by then. Besides, L Company was the largest of the five and would make a more effective skirmish line. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Aug 26, 2013 15:16:44 GMT -6
As far as the order of march we can put E or F in front whichever you choose but as to the rest I believe it to be I then C then L. I say this because we know that L co formed the skirmish line. Why if L co was in the middle of I and C would you pull them out to go around C co to form the skirmish line. It just makes sense to me that L co was in the rear . Dan, Don't forget, by the time L Company was placed on a skirmish line, the five companies had basically co-mingled on Calhoun Hill, so it wouldn't have made any difference what order they were in by then. Besides, L Company was the largest of the five and would make a more effective skirmish line. Best wishes, Fred. Captain Fred... OK that makes sense to me now. I had thought they were already on a line of march along battle ridge when L co formed the skirmish line., Now its clear, thank you. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2013 15:17:43 GMT -6
Fred: What do you base co-mingling on? Being the strongest company is also why I would have L in the lead were I Keogh. Interesting thought process though, where there can hardly be a wrong answer. That deployment would fit the personality of the "deployer", and his preferred technique I would think.
Leaders co-mingling on Calhoun Hill I have not a doubt in the world. That is the obvious place of observation to issue orders and directives. The thought of 210 men fiddle farting around that hilltop while they do that is somewhat a novelty to me though. I can see Yates' battalion down in the Keogh Swale still in column. and the Keogh column down in the Henryville dip. All the while Custer, Yates, Keogh, Cooke, TWC and perhaps one or two others on the hilltop issuing and or receiving a frag order. Two, three, four minutes, then everyone starts moving again.
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Post by fred on Aug 26, 2013 16:01:19 GMT -6
Chuck,
I don't mean co-mingling in the literal sense, that C troopers were mixed in with E, F with L, etc. I mean the companies arrived there... F first, then E-- piecemeal-- then Keogh's battalion. They wouldn't be in any particular order, facing in any particular direction. Dispositions would have been made then...
Custer... "I'm taking Yates and Smith and heading north to find a ford below these guys...." Keogh... "OK. I'll set up L as skirmishers, C along this ridge...."
... and so forth.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 26, 2013 17:16:13 GMT -6
That's the way I read it too. Frag order simple and direct, leaving the discretion of the how to Keogh. I think these decisions were made atop Calhoun Hill, but I would also think the two battalions were separated from one another and elsewhere. The two places I listed above being the first two that would come to mind considering one came from Ford B and the other one following generally the axis of the ridge tops B-N-C.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 27, 2013 5:15:27 GMT -6
I don’t think any decisions about leaving Keogh and his three Companies behind were made before they separated in MTC, I also reckon that Custer didn’t plan his next move until he withdrew from Ford B, so he would either have an Officers call when he reached Calhoun Hill or send Cook or one of the Sergeants with fresh orders while the HQ, E and F moved on to Battle Ridge.
I know I have mentioned this many times but, this could have been the most fluid part of the battle, Custer had made up his mind about going north after his withdrawal up to Calhoun, he could have ordered Yates to keep his wing moving whilst he sent orders to Keogh to stand bye (and do things by the book with one in skirmish and two mounted) and wait for further orders and any support from the south.
Now I don’t know if GAC could see the northern end of the village from Calhoun Hill or Battle Ridge, so if he intended to fathom this out and leave Keogh behind then he knew that Keogh was a experienced Officer and just a brief order along the lines of ‘’just hold here till we get back, need to find the end of this place, keep an eye out for Benteen’’, now Keogh went by the book because of the firing and movement from the ford, and he would have held that position till he was ordered to move or kicked off.
Dan, no news on Gordon as yet, due to contact him in early September.
Ian.
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Post by bc on Aug 27, 2013 11:14:53 GMT -6
Probably not surprising but I have a different take on the Keogh Battalion. It is based upon a hunch only. No data at all. I believe the order of march was Keogh, Company L, Company I, and finally Company C. Here is why. I envision them going into position with Company L first on Calhoun Hill, Company I passing through ending up further north. Finally Company C passes through ending up in the middle. Keogh commanded the battalion. There was no need for him to be with his company, nor they with him. Company L going into position first defines the southern end, the end facing the most immediate potential threat. Just makes sense to me for L to define the position and the other two companies to further build upon it. Agree on F and E in that order, and for a similar reason, having nothing to do with F being Yates' company. I believe the same procedure with F and E was used at both fords. The lead company would establish the initial bound, and the following company, the one designated to either take the close look, or accompany (escort) the recon party itself would pass through or around and make the final bound, while F would cover the movement. I think it was E who took the close look at Ford B, and also E that accompanied the recon party to Ford D or its environs. Not only a hunch but doesn't what you say about Co. L make tactical sense as well? I never thought of it that way before but if 3 columns are approaching a place to where a defense is being set up, either by direct movement or a retrograde action, the proper course of action would be for the lead company to form up the skirmish line and let the next companies pass through. That gets the line set up much faster than if they waited for the last column to arrive and also helps protect the last two columns if there were NAs on their tail, either short or long range. I believe something similar was done on the movements to and from Weir Point. Perhaps Tactics 303? bc
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