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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 28, 2013 5:51:29 GMT -6
I agree Chuck, why pick Kanipe over Martini, Martini was with the HQ as a courier so it would have been his job to do this mission, don’t forget this is the first courier sent out to Benteen/McDougall so you pick the man for the job and the man is the soldier picked as a courier for the HQ (Martini), plus if C Company was tail end Charley why take an order all the way back to the end of the column and pick out a Sergeant and give him a message, wont that take time, and Custer was moving fast so speed was paramount to him.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 28, 2013 7:30:43 GMT -6
... Martini was with the HQ as a courier so it would have been his job to do this mission... And let us not forget, as well, TWC was riding with that HQ group, so he would have known of Martini's presence there. I doubt seriously Tom would have needed any permission to send someone back with a message. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 28, 2013 10:36:15 GMT -6
You forget about the fact Boyer viewed the whole mess from atop Weir Point and knew the countryside like the back of his hand. There was no need for Custer to go to Weir Point... and he didn't.If Custer did not go to Weir Point then he should have because it would have cost him nothing to do so,That being so and if there is no evidence to the contrary in all probability he did go to the point. 3411 Afforded him a very limited view and even with a verbal description from Boyer his intell fell well short of what was required to commit to an attack.He has got to see the terrain and situation for himself. Further Cedar coulee veers away from MTCF entering MTC at least 500 yards further West.[away from home and don't have my maps]
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2013 10:57:30 GMT -6
Richard: If you follow your "should have" logic-----He "should have" turned around and gone back from whence he came, and we could close down this board, for lack of interest in --George Who.
The point is whether he did or did not, and I come down on the side of did not, what would have been different? Would he have changed his mind then and gone back?
He was committed to an attack the moment he ordered Reno in, and Benteen out, then turned onto the bluffs
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Post by fred on Mar 28, 2013 12:03:48 GMT -6
If Custer did not go to Weir Point then he should have because it would have cost him nothing to do so,That being so and if there is no evidence to the contrary in all probability he did go to the point. It would have cost him plenty! Time! Again, you miss the whole point and you are making very weak assumptions. A stronger assumption would be that Boyer told him of the village size and that he could see even more farther north, viz., Luce Ridge, Nye-Cartwright Ridge. Besides, north was where the scattering village was headed... meaning time was becoming even more important. A trip to Weir at that stage of the game was ludicrous... at least to this military mind! Weir Point was 500 yards off Cedar Coulee-- Cedar being the best of a difficult route north-- and his troops were already in that ravine, already committed to it; 500 up; 500 back... for what? To see something he could see better farther north? A dumb solution. You are also forgetting distance, smoke, and dust. From Weir, Custer could see "distance," but he could not see close, which is where your intel lies. "Close" is why he went to 3,411 in the first place; "close" is where I wanted to be on every patrol and recon I ever ran. Custer's scouts could "see" the village location from the Crow's Nest. What else did that height provide? Nothing. Still the best route north and it led to easy routes up to the Luce complex. Boyer would, in all likelihood, know that. One other thing... no participant in that battle ever claimed Custer went up to Weir Point. That notion developed in the minds of historians and writers, misinterpreting what DeRudio, Martini, and the Crows said in their various accounts over the years. There is not a single shred of evidence Custer ever went there. It is sort of like the lone tepee... a misinterpretation, handed down over decades, and now accepted as immutable truth. In fact, it is a complete distortion of history, simply because it is built on an assumption rather than any legitimate accounts. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 28, 2013 13:36:53 GMT -6
If MTCF is his target then Weir Point is not a detour Cedar Coulee is. Now assumptions is the name of the game and I'll opt for assuming that Weir Point is the correct thing to do.Custer knows nothing of the terrain Northwards.He has got to see the sand table before he commits. And why would his troops be advancing down Cedar Coulee before he has completed his observation from 3411? To see something he could see better farther north?[/i] Further North has him commited. Weir faced something of the same problem ;seeking information on happenings further North and choose Weir Point and his company went into the adjacent coulee. There is not a single shred of evidence Custer ever went there. If AZ comes on here and states that MTCF can be reached faster via Cedar Coulee than Weir Point then no arguement.
If you follow your "should have" logic-----He "should have" turned around and gone back from whence he came The application of "should have" is to strenghten an assumption that a force commander will take every opportunity to inform himself of the terrain over which he intends to attack. 3411 Is of very limited use in this regard
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2013 14:43:49 GMT -6
Richard: I am going to share with you the wisdom of a man I deeply respected, although he never achieved any higher rank than Captain after 24 years of service.
"There is no right and wrong when it comes to tactics, he told me. If it works then it is always right. If it does not, then it and you are always wrong."
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Post by benteen on Mar 28, 2013 15:01:46 GMT -6
Richard: I am going to share with you the wisdom of a man I deeply respected, although he never achieved any higher rank than Captain after 24 years of service. "There is no right and wrong when it comes to tactics, he told me. If it works then it is always right. If it does not, then it and you are always wrong." Colonel, A profound statement. It reminds me of the edict When you are in an untenable position, right or wrong, do Something. Be Well Dan
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Post by montrose on Mar 28, 2013 17:42:15 GMT -6
Failure to make a decision is a decision.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 28, 2013 17:50:28 GMT -6
Dan: That same fellow also said make all your tactical plans as simple as possible. There is no room for anything fancy below the division level
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2013 3:04:14 GMT -6
Dan: That same fellow also said make all your tactical plans as simple as possible. There is no room for anything fancy below the division level[/] Perhaps a pearl of wisdom too many? Custer's command was above division level.It was the whole bloody force.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 29, 2013 4:48:17 GMT -6
Good morning everyone. I don’t know if anyone will agree with me (well there’s nothing new about that), but it seems to me that Custer wanted both Reno and Benteen out of the way, if you look at the Custer Battalion after it separates from Reno, then we can see that the two Custer’s are going to call the shots, now I know that GAC was the Regimental commander, but having TWC by his side would give him an ally if any of the other Officers disagreed with him, with despatching both Benteen and Reno to other areas would leave GAC with only one Officer who would stand up to him, Capt. Keogh, but his lone voice would be toothless against the combined comments of GAC, TWC, Yates, Cook and Calhoun.
So having a big headed Officer who is out of his depth as a Regimental Commander along with a load of yes men is a disaster waiting to unfold.
Ian.
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Post by wild on Mar 29, 2013 7:54:44 GMT -6
Hi Ian Keogh's position within the extended Custer clan is not clear.He appears in many photos of the clan at play but I think he was also a good friend of Benteen's. His biography An Honour of Arms does not mention this issue. As regards getting rid of troublesome officers;6 companys is a very high price to pay for such a policy. Best Regards
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Post by benteen on Mar 29, 2013 8:17:39 GMT -6
Good morning everyone. I don’t know if anyone will agree with me (well there’s nothing new about that), but it seems to me that Custer wanted both Reno and Benteen out of the way, if you look at the Custer Battalion after it separates from Reno, then we can see that the two Custer’s are going to call the shots, now I know that GAC was the Regimental commander, but having TWC by his side would give him an ally if any of the other Officers disagreed with him, with despatching both Benteen and Reno to other areas would leave GAC with only one Officer who would stand up to him, Capt. Keogh, but his lone voice would be toothless against the combined comments of GAC, TWC, Yates, Cook and Calhoun. So having a big headed Officer who is out of his depth as a Regimental Commander along with a load of yes men is a disaster waiting to unfold. Ian. Ian, Your opinion as always has merit. I dont disagree but I do look at it a little differently. Certainly everyone wants to be in the company of people they feel comfortable with, but in this case I dont believe Custer cared in the least who liked him and who didnt. He was going to give an order or a direction and they were going to obey. No one was going to stand up to him or argue with him. He would give an order and they would obey no matter who it was. I use Benteen (Who couldnt stand Custer) as an example. Benteen made a suggestion to Custer. There was no debate, Custer simply said "Captain you have your orders" and that was the end of it. Be Well Dan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 29, 2013 8:37:43 GMT -6
Hello Dan/Richard. I know what you both mean; yes all of the Officer's would have carried out any commands of their superior, but when we get to this stage of the battle we have Custer with his Brother plus his Brother in-law (not to mention Boston and Autie Reed who joined him later) and a few close friends all in one Battalion, I maybe reading too much into this so I apologise now before I go out on a limb and make an Easter bunny of myself, but could GAC have picked certain Officers/Companies to join him on his sortie along the bluffs thinking that they would be the premium unit and take the spoils of capturing the village.
Ian.
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