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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2013 13:30:10 GMT -6
Chris To me the "Big village" meant nothing more than Custer knew where it was and Benteen didn't. Were they looking for one village? We have two probing attacks ordered; were they sent to engage the same target? Best wishes
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 6, 2013 13:38:04 GMT -6
Another thing to contemplate is the "significance", as opposed to the "meaning", of the "bring pacs" notation included not once, but twice. What I mean by that is that it has been debated at great length as to whether it "meant" to bring along the entire pack train or only the ammunition packs, but let's move beyond that for a moment and think about why it was "significant". What had changed from earlier that made Custer now want to have the packs, with either definition, now with him? If what he meant was the ammunition packs, why did he suddenly feel that he needed more ammunition? When they left the pack train behind he knew that he was going into battle, and all of the troopers were carrying the standard combat load, so why did he now think that was insufficient and more was needed? Why did he not think that more would be needed earlier and have the troopers load up their pockets with as much as they could carry as Crook had done, but he now thought that he needed more? The only explanation can be that, despite warnings from his scouts, he just then realized how many Indians he was truly up against and that the combat loads that the troopers were carrying would likely not be enough.
To further complicate the issue, if we accept the ammunition pack theory, we need to remember that Custer had not fired a single shot yet, while Reno had been heavily engaged, so why would Custer order "the pacs" to hurry directly to him while bypassing Reno?
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 6, 2013 13:53:36 GMT -6
QC,
I think that my answers to your last question(s) further reinforce what I said previously. I don't believe that there was any opportunity or need to "feel to the left" until they had crossed the divide and were entering the LBH valley, and, pretty much as soon as they did, Custer threw out Benteen to the left. I would suggest that, if he was merely paying lip service to Terry's instructions, he would not have wasted a quarter of his force and his most seasoned commander in doing so. The fact that he did indicates, I think, that he considered it as a serious matter. In regard to your second question, any Indian movement to the south need not necessarily be as a result of their having detected the trap, as they could have just been moving that way in the normal course of things and escaping the trap without even knowing it.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 14:09:46 GMT -6
Fully agree. No opportunity to do it sooner than he did. Lip service was not being payed. The mission was both carrying out an order and for sufficient reason. Contact on the part of Benteen would not be a positive indicator of escaping the trap, nor does it indicate any knowledge that a trap was in the making. Nothing absolute mind you, but the most probable reason, was pursuit of business as usual.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 14:12:45 GMT -6
"We have two probing attacks ordered; were they sent to engage the same target?" Richard, I think the message written in haste (appropriately), meant to convey: "get off that errand and come this way." I doubt either was looking for what was found (a city of Sioux/Cheyenne) although Custer was warned enough about it. When the message was sent, Custer had a target, rather large considering. Benteen did not. What are you driving at? Best, c. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=4398&page=7#ixzz2Mn9bajMR
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2013 23:23:56 GMT -6
Hi Chris What are you driving at? Just wondering out loud. The point at which Benteen is dispatched is 10 miles from the point at which Reno is dispatched. Both battalions left unsupported and Custer continues on. Was he really acting against satellite villages ala Washita and then is horrified to find such a concentration? Thus "big village" has much more significance?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 7, 2013 4:54:12 GMT -6
Good morning to you all;
The fact that Gen. Terry gave GAC orders to feel to the left and GAC playing lip service to the good General would be the last thing on the mind of GAC, because I think he should have threw away any orders given to him by Terry when he thought that his Regiment had been spotted (or maybe he did).
General Terry’s note to Colonel Custer.
You should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken leads. Should it be found (as appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Horn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn towards the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians to the south or southeast by passing around to your flank.
Looking at this, Terry was talking about the big picture, along the lines of do this unit until you locate the village, but didn’t GAC have a good idea were the village was on the morning of the 25th.
If he did order Capt. Benteen to scout to the left to appease Terry, then it was a big mistake in my view, because he must have had a general idea were the village was located when he and Reno went up Reno creek, otherwise why would he split his command into two, he must have been on the attack mode to do this, so why order Benteen to scout left when he had been told by his scouts that this village would be large.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 5:09:19 GMT -6
Hi Richard, As to your question, I don't have a clue what Custer's plan was as regards acting against satellite villages.
I guess though, once he saw the extent of the village, Custer knew that Benteen had to be called to the ballgame. I doubt he'd have shown any kind of horror in front of his men. Might have soiled himself though! Best, c.
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 7, 2013 8:18:59 GMT -6
This topic is also being discussed on the other board, and in a recent post, a poster suggests that Benteen's lack of urgency was due to him being peeved that he was not in the "place of honor" as the "Advance" and that he thought the valley fight would be over by the time he arrived, so why the rush to go to Reno?
I have had the impression that Benteen thought he was being directed to go to Custer, not Reno. Does anyone have anything to support that idea?
AK
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 7, 2013 8:37:07 GMT -6
I reckon that if a Battalion Commander receives a written order from his Regimental Commander to ‘’be quick’’ and ‘’come on’’, then it would mean come directly to him, but things can go wrong, and in the days before radios, fate can step in and alter things dramatically, as far as I can see Benteen never really questioned Martini over Custer’s location, he also had no idea that both Reno and Custer had split, he could have gotten some idea of these things if he pushed Martini for more info, so when Benteen moved to comply with what he thought the note said, he stumbled across a helpless Reno, and there and then events changed. For all we know Benteen may have thought he was joining the rest of the Regiment when he got to Reno hill, wasn’t the first words out of his mouth ‘’where’s Custer’’.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 7, 2013 8:41:15 GMT -6
That old Victorian raises it head again. "I have the advance" "Take the right of the Line" Never saw so many people in such a hurry to get themselves killed.
I have not looked over there this morning but I can imagine what was said. If you think Benteen was a pro then he did what he was told regardless of if he liked it or not and went where he was sent, did what he was sent to do. If you think him a thumb sucking schoolboy, then he pissed his pants, and deliberately contributed to every life lost that day. I think the former.
The note in the absence of clarity of content, means come to Custer. What it does not say is where Custer is. I don't think it would be hard to assume, even with Martin able to give directions, that Custer would be mixing up with hostiles in very same general location as Reno by the time Benteen got there. I suspect had he seen Reno on line or in the early stages of leaving the timber he would have gone directly to him. As it was Reno had retreated and Benteen was directed toward the Bluff. He asked where Custer was probably expecting to find him with Reno.
PS: Now I have looked over there and I am not surprised. We speak here of Models. One's model is based entirely on the idea that Benteen was having an afternoon long hissy fit, and everything in his model is based upon that - every move. The other candidate bases everything on Reno being a drunk and/or coward, flavors it with cavalry able to leap tall building in a single bound, and stopping runaway locomotives with their pinkey finger, and his models are based upon that and little else. They just cannot fathom the idea that their Hero placed one element far out of position, and sent another element into a situation that called for a brigade, and then goes swanning off telling no one where he was going or what he was doing. Then both opine the cavalry was used to operating at great distances one from the other and it should have made no difference.
AK you already have their number. You knew the answer before you asked the question.
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 7, 2013 9:06:05 GMT -6
Ian,
Good summary, and Benteen did in fact say that, when he arrived in the vicinity of Ford A and saw the remnants of Reno's force in the valley, he thought it as the entire regiment and was ready to join it until redirected by the scouts. General Miles later stated that by all measures of military protocol (of the day), he did the correct thing in stopping to assist Reno rather than continuing to Custer (Not that because Miles said it makes it correct, but keogh on the other board loves to quote Miles when it suites his purposes and even goes so far as to erroneously call him General of the Army in an attempt to build up his credence, so I thought I would throw that in there).
AK, Likewise, certain members on the other board keep saying that Benteen drug his feet because he was peeved at Custer. First off, it is not a given that he did take an undue amount of time, and secondly, I have never, ever seen any evidence that his professional actions were influenced in any way by his dislike of Custer or his disagreement with his assignment that day. Many keep saying that it did, but that doesn't make it so.
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Post by shatonska on Mar 7, 2013 9:19:06 GMT -6
This topic is also being discussed on the other board, and in a recent post, a poster suggests that Benteen's lack of urgency was due to him being peeved that he was not in the "place of honor" as the "Advance" and that he thought the valley fight would be over by the time he arrived, so why the rush to go to Reno? I have had the impression that Benteen thought he was being directed to go to Custer, not Reno. Does anyone have anything to support that idea? AK i don't see the point if Benteen was a bit faster down Reno creek he had been in time to support Reno still in the wood , this before Martini reaching him with the note that would have not changed anything anyway , Beenten would have charged in the valley not knowing if it was Reno or Custer and if he knew he would have helped those in the valley anyway
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 7, 2013 9:47:36 GMT -6
I have taken the liberty of reading some of Clair’s posts over yonder, and after careful deliberation I come up with this;
Aye, it depends on which model you choose, each battle student has a different take you know, it also depends on your mind set, you could either Infantry or Cavalry, it really does matter you know, if Reno was not drunk his skirmish lines could have held off the Indians for four weeks, you see it all comes down to being a Hussar type, Benteen stopped off for a picnic and showed a more Infantry mind set rather than a Cavalry/Hussar type. But Keogh could have held out on Calhoun Ridge for a month or two, and Custer’s men had arrow dodging horses that could ride all day and not get tired or hit be by incoming arrow fire.
Conz, whoops sorry Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 7, 2013 10:08:36 GMT -6
Ian: Every time I here that semi-word Aye, I think of Charlton Heston playing Long John Silver is a rather bad made fo TV version of Treasure Island "Aye it's Old Barbeque right enough"
Your Clair rendition was right on the mark. Of course the other one is just as bad in his own way. In his mind Benteen could have been commanding the entire Army of the Potomac, and still not come to Custer's aid because he was still pissed about some major issue or other, like Custer having poached eggs that morning, served on a sterling silver plate complete with hand embroidered place mat, while Benteen had been served hard boiled with a stale cracker, that he had to eat standing up in a pile of horse dung.. Sheer nonsense, everyone knows that infantry types like anything hard boiled.
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